When do you become middle class?

We’re WC and my parents held education as very important. My parents went over our report cards thoroughly, attended every parents evening, checked we’d done our homework, we all took our 11+. I failed so went to the local comp. My sister passed and went to a very selective posh (private) school. Ironically my best friend at the comp was very MC and my sister’s best friend at the posh school was WC like herself.

I find that hilarious, and yes, the demarcation did indeed exist. You were a BBC family or an ITV family, and if you watched the BBC you didn't watch ITV and vice versa.

And it's not as though there were a plethora of channels to choose from. What a weird, weird stance to take!

As the old Yorkshire saying goes, 'there's nowt so queer as folk'.

You asked me to elaborate what I mean by 'values', which is what I did.

What you'd actually like to know is which values I think are held by WC/MC/UC people?

There are many examples. I'd say a key one, that's already been mentioned a lot here, is education. I think the MC demographic value academic results more highly than either WC or UC groups. I think there is far more respect and value for hands-on professions/trades in a WC demographic than a MC one. I think there is far more hand-wringing and worrying over school choices/education in a MC demographic than either WC/UC.

Another area where the groups differ is community. Community cohesion is generally valued more highly in WC communities than MC ones. Social isolation is higher in a MC demographic.

Sociology or social psychology books/papers are where to look for more examples, data and more eloquently explained than I can do here.

So I thought my parents didn't earn much.
3 of us dcs and DM was a foster parent who stayed at home, while df wore a suit to work and paid all the bills.
Not allowed to watch itv as df worked for a BBC department.
Over time they followed rugby and became quite snobby iyswim.
I on the other hand married into working class.
Bought our own home kids went to local grammar school and we live in a nice area.my corner shop is Waitrose.
No idea how class works tbh.

There is a difference between cultural and economic class. Economic fortunes can rise and fall but cultural preferences remain. And make no difference.

Essentially class is not a purely a cultural phenomenon - this is a strangely UK thing. Economic class still exists the world over. If you and your family rely on earned income for your current and future income you are working class even if you like the Archers and opera and play instruments and have heaving bookshelves and earn a good income. All it means is that you have a greater but not vested interest in the continuation of the current system because you would be fucked without it.

If on the other hand you do not rely on the labour of yourself but make profit from the labour of others and so do not rely on earned income to maintain your lifestyle, you are not working class even if you hate the Archers and prefer Love Island. Change the cultural references and this applies across the globe. This is class. This is exploitation and vested interest.

If you ignore economic class how do you understand inequality? I'm not talking of inequality between individuals who may have strived to different degrees but between groups that share characteristics. Regardless of class are white men superior as they do seem to occupy a lot of positions of economic and political power? How do we explain that? I don't think a concept of the cultural middle class or egalitarianism can stretch that far.

I didn’t ask you for a definition of the word, how does it indicate class?

According to my husband, when you buy a china gravy boat rather than serving gravy in the plastic jug I use to make it. He took the piss so much that I now refuse to use the gravy boat 😁

Phone for the fish knives Norman

It is notable that many UC or UMC work in low paid but interesting jobs such as for charities, auction houses, academia. They are able to afford to do this because they have a financial cushion of some kind.

I googled and found this:

Values are deeply held beliefs about what is important, desirable, and worthwhile in life.

I'd say that sums up what I mean when I say 'values'.

My understanding is that your parents cant change class, no matter how much Boden they wear or how much their Wren kitchen cost.

They can have a middle class lifestyle but will always be working class if they grew up in the circumstances you describe them growing up in.

I believe your social class is set by late childhood.

I have all the signifiers of a middle class life - the Archers included. But I’m firmly working class.

The idea that class ‘doesn’t exist’ is a privileged viewpoint from those completely ignorant of class discrimination. I experience this on the daily.

You only have to look at some of the stats for elite organisations and universities to know it exists. I imagine it’s a lot worse in the wider workplace and public services.

Saying class doesn’t exist is totally wrong.

When you have all the trappings of a middle class lifestyle. Kids in private school, ski holidays, nice two weeks in the sun, a nice home in a leafy area... The people who can afford this now are our tradesmen like electricians, plumbers, builders. These are essentially living a very comfortable, middle class lifestyle, heavily investing in their kids who will grow up mc. I am hoping my son will do a trade.

Oh I forgot my partner has a Barbour jacket lol

I really don’t understand this class system. I live in a small town in central Scotland and never hear of anyone talking about this .It must be an English thing. It’s talked a lot on mumsnet. It’s as if everyone wants to be middle class
Anyway I’ll join in since I’m here 😀. I’m definitely working class. I work in a warehouse, my
partner an electrician. We live in a large detached house, nice car. I like classical music. Hate reading. Enjoy history documentaries, I have bugger all savings. My kids are nice and polite. Grew up happily in a council house. In a nice area.

To be heducated with a few manner chucked in for good measure!

Oh dear, I thought it was me just getting old. Not that I had started being middle class 😂 Although the listening in radio 4 I am blaming on DH. I find the people on here obsessing over what class they are in hilarious. I have never heard anyone in real life worrying about this.

The class system in the UK is wild.

As an Irish person you are always placed as working class too

In Ireland almost 70% of people see themselves in what we call "middle Ireland"

So they're middle class when they want to be I guess!

I flit between the two and I'm also WC (my roots) when I want to be. Sure it's called accommodation in language where we change our accent, vocab etc depending on the company. I suppose this extends beyond language and my interests can also change depending on whether I'm with my family or my upper MC in laws, for example.

It's interesting taking my sushi loving DC home and my mum giving them things like pie and mash.

As for your question OP, I think some are too fluid to define.

Again, there is no class.

It's a completely made up thought construct.

These days it only really exists in England.

Every other countrt has advanced with the times

Quite. I don’t think anyone would refer to Wayne Rooney (for example) as anything but working class

He does have a very good point. I think the “middle class” OP is hoping posters tell her she is are far more educated than to aggressively wade in by calling someone a prick. Perhaps if that’s what she aspires to she needs to dial down the temper

from the outside maybe.

When your dad starting having staff beneath him and wore a suit, and could afford to buy his house? I'd say if people's tastes change, like going to restaurants and the theatre rather than the local working men's club or disco? It's really hard to say to be honest. Some people like your parents might still consider themselves still proudly working class because of their modest, council house background. So they're middle class when they want to be I guess!