When do you become middle class?

Absolutely. It makes perfect sense, of course.

I suppose it's quite sad, in a way, that the mere presence of trees is not a given for many people.

It was new information to me too, as a lifelong city dweller! But once I’d read it, I could see the truth in it.

I live in the countryside and have done all my life, other than stints abroad for work, so have never really thought about tree lined streets, as trees and greenery are so abundant to me.

So hard to get into, that I think if you get a place anywhere then accept it. In these kinds of vocational courses, your university has very limited impact on your job offers, vs a 'subject' like economics, where a degree from a high ranking university would generally carry much more weight than a lower ranking one

Yes, all the above is true (and this is also in answer to the post asking about the differences between the US and the UK). Not least the fact that in the US, race and class are still very much an overlapping category. In different and subtler senses, those systemic racial inequalities are also at play in the UK although, thank the gods, we have nothing to equal the Jim Crow laws and racial segregation policies here. And I would not want to be a woman living in the US with a real prospect of a Trump presidency, not to mention the alarming rollback of women's rights in the red states in particular.

The barriers determining 'class' are subtle and hard to define in any society. In the states education does have a part to play, but it's mostly a question of wealth. A person can start in a housing project, be educated and enormously successful, and be deemed upper or middle class. You don't remain the class you were born into, and depending on the peaks and trough of your fortunes can be a member of all social classes at various stages of your life.

The old transatlantic ocean liners have been thought of as a microcosm of class structures in the early twentieth-century. Until World War 2 the UK had its landed gentry: huge estates owned by old, wealthy families which still exists today but to a far lesser extent. The US equivalent was the prominent 'gilded age' families - people like the Rockefellers, Guggenheims, Morgans, Vanderbilts and Astors, who made vast fortunes in property, railroad, tobacco, oil and steel industries then built huge, tacky estates in the style of European antiquity. This might well be where the UK stereotype of the 'vulgar' American started. These also included powerful entrepeneurs or media moguls like William Randolph Hearst or Howard Hughes - both of whom have been viciously satirised by Hollywood, no less.

I think those old stereotypes are a better way of putting it into context, as issues like class structures do have their roots in history. But in the US there's far less emphasis on where you originally came from as the thing that defines you forever, and more emphasis on the success you make of your life. This conveniently ignores things like systemic privilege and structural disadvantage including the funding of Higher Education. Also, the 'wrong' set of circumstances can bring you down with a crash and there are fewer safety nets.

Smalltown middle America can be a comfortable, pleasant and safe place to be. Or it may be that this is illusory; a view coloured by personal experience. I've lived in Maine, a place with a low crime rate and the rare anomaly of being blue around the coastline and red in the interior (as a general rule). And that brings the inevitable problem of gun laws. The recent shooting in that state quite shook me, being close to the home of my own experience. It struck me that if it can happen in calm, quiet, 'safe'-feeling Maine, it can happen anywhere.

There are advantages and disadvantages - not least a certain degree of hypocrisy - to be found in both countries. But they are diametrically different. The US can be quite a culture shock to those expecting a common language and similar culture to our own. It really isn't.

@PinkBlouse veterinary medicine/science so not many to choose from.

First of all, I think class is largely bollocks.

But my interpretation is that social class is seen as something you are born into. So I think your parents would be working class. You would be working class too potentially depending on whether or not your dad was in a professional job when you were born. Your children would be middle class based on your educational and professional background.

She should primarily consider the reputation and ranking of the specific degree course she’s applying for, over the university’s. I used to teach at a former poly which generally ranked low, but had some courses which had maintained their outstanding reputation from the poly days.

Is there still a divide between the old polytechnics and what were called proper universities? Dd is looking at which universities to apply to and I was telling her how people looked down on the old polytechnics but I don't know if they still do.

Well, of course it’s a ‘made up construct’! Like caste, like nations, money, writing, religion, progress, law etc. That doesn’t mean it (a) doesn’t exist or (b) doesn’t have an impact on people’s lives.

I think it’s quite an outdated concept. Many years ago there was a big class divide and there was society and what they termed as old and new money and a lot of snobbery around this and social mobility was more limited.

I think the lines are more blurred now although there is still a divide between those that have money and those that don’t.

My parents were WC but home owners, DH parents were WC from a council estate. DH and I are home owners and not in traditional WC roles but I wouldnt define myself as WC or MC

Yes, quite literally leafy. My granddad came from what is pretty much inner city Manchester and moved here where there are many very old trees and lots of green and we look out onto the Peak District. Kinder Scout is visible from his house. It's still his house to me despite him passing away over 20 years ago. You can see the Swizzels factory too in the distance which is far less pretty. He wrote three books that I'm aware of and was a specialist in his rather niche field as was my dad. My dad loved tinned ravioli and stayed close to his WC roots. He had a massive chip on his shoulder about capitalists and capitalism and hated if anyone bettered themselves yet voted Tory 🤷🏼‍♀️
My eldest is revelling in moving away from here and embracing a Manchester/Stockport accent which are different I know but she somehow uses both which is not how she was raised. Our accents are northern but otherwise indiscernible.
Class discussions on here are always entertaining and makes me revisit lots of interesting conversations from my younger days.

No,if you graduate you are still working class,however any children you have will be middle class.

When a significant portion of your income (but not > 50%) is not generated by your primary employment OR your primary employment is in professional white collar roles (teacher/lecturer/doctor/lawyer/accountant/architect/engineer/scientist etc) that requires at least degree level education (although this is shifting to a Masters as a minimum).

It is not intrinsically linked to high(er) income (see teachers/lecturers for example).

I’m very much lower class and I’m losing sleep over school choices 😭.

Not IME
I am working class and I have friends who are very MC. They are pretty snobby tbh. They try and hide it but it invariably comes out. They were born and raised MC and still are.

Oy! Leave my pug alone ! A brilliant read CLASS by Jilly Cooper.

This. Working class is anyone who has to work to live, who couldnt afford not to work, who believes its important to work hard. Then there are those who rarely or never work out of choice but rely on the state. And those who can afford to never work due to inherited money.

In my mind, class itself is how people treat others. Having class is about have respect for yourself and others, being proud of achievements but not showy/boastful, basing how you treat people from how they treat you, rather than on how they look etc

It’s very literal in its meaning, it turns out, and was a city planning tool - areas with tree lined streets are wealthier/middle class, areas without trees are poorer/more working class.

I read about it relatively recently, had never thought about it before.

Quite.

And I still don't know what a "leafy area" is, so I'm clearly not classy.

These threads always end up as boring boast fests.
DP has 2 siblings, tradesmen or married to one, absolutely loaded, one owns a few rental properties, foreign hols several times a year. Money is for spending, certainly not on private education rather nights out, cars, false nails and Botox. Neither sent their kids to decent schools and not a single book in the house. One child has just had a baby at 19. I guess in time the ‘cultured’ aspect of being MC will wither away and it will just revolve around money.

There’s also a big difference between the northern and southern middle class. Back in the day went on a few posh skiing hols and it stood out massively.

I’m solid middle class (dad was an academic, lived in leafy area, went to private school). I have always hated the Archers with a passion. I find a lot of of Radio 4 output off putting because of the gratuitous middle class-ness even though the content is fantastic. The demographic targeting is obvious and heavy handed.

Good joke!

Have you never watched US Shameless? Or heard the term “trailer park trash”?

The US, home of the WASP. Where racial segregation was legal until 1964 and where informally it’s still a massive issue. Where Roe v Wade is being slowly eroded and where only the rich/ upper classes can pay to avoid the consequences of the laws they themselves enact on things like abortion. Where Donald Trump (the very epitome of inherited privilege) is running for office again, despite horrifically racist and misogynist views. I think I’d rather stick with the UK where you might just get judged for putting a milk bottle on the table!

Most (every) society has a class system, it’s just that we understand our own better than others so we don’t see those which exist abroad.

People don’t talk about it in the uk either. Not in RL. Good grief hat would be dreadfully common. 😂

I think it's all a load of bollocks (oops, showing my class there 😬)

If people who live on benefits can't call themselves working class, what are we? We're going for a term like "underclass"?

I'm a qualified teacher, currently working on my second university degree. We go to the theatre, go to see orchestras and are Nat Trust members. We love museums and galleries. I worked from when I was 12 until I had to stop aged 29. My social circle includes lecturers and accountants as well as fast food workers and delivery drivers. We are living on benefits.

We're all over the class system depending on your definition, which makes it inherently bullshit.

I'll take "underclass", though, because it's a meaningless concept.