AIBU to hope 'Tommy Robinson' finally faces some consequences?

@Harvestfestivalknickers

"I think there is a need for deeper thought though - why is he resonating with so many?
Please don't tell me they are all far right, thick racists because I don't think they are."

To be fair there are "thick people " on both sides of the debate, I also think the term "thick " is a bit unfair and would prefer to describe it as less educated and an inability to form a calm, coherent, logical and fact based opinion.

But whilst the left dismisses any concern on immigration, regardless of the manner in which it is expressed, as "far right racist thugs". And whilst the right cannot recognise that "a level" of immigration and emigration is inevitable. Then sadly the debate polarises which then results in street protests.

@Locutus2000

"But he is a racist. Sometimes there is no need for deeper thought."

Look if after putting together a logical and clear argument on the flaws of large scale migration, how morally it is unacceptable for employers to use migrant workers as a means to avoid market priced salaries or avoid the cost of training and instead re engage those in society that are economically inactive - I then get labelled racist or more accurately a "muddy supporter" of Tommy Robinson simply because the poster was unable to construct a logical and clear counter argument. Then what hope is there ever for any rational debate or discussion on immigration if anytime the topic is brought up either calm and coherently or loud and emotively then it is simply dismissed as "racist".

Unfortunately, it is because of racism and ignorance/stupidity.

To blame immigrants for the structural problems we've had since at least the industrial revolution, and more specifically since the 70s, can only be one or the other, or both.

We've seen the same opposition to every modern wave of immigration; the Irish fleeing the famine, Jews fleeing the Nazis, Ugandan Asians, the Windrush Generation etc.

That hostility has always been stoked by agitators on the far right, it's not a new phenomena. What's different is this time, it's being fuelled by a well funded international network of groups and fanned on social media.

If the people marching in London were actually minded to change things, they'd be marching with trade unions or volunteering in their communities or something constructive. But they're not.

Of course you are trying to justify Tommy Robinson. Immigration is not responsible for any of the things you are claiming to be concerned about.

You're labouring under so many misconceptions, not least assuming the opposition to this latest rabble rousing fascist is bourgeois lefty posturing. It was the working-class that beat the blackshirts, that fought the NF and we're doing it again now.

I think there is a need for deeper thought though - why is he resonating with so many?
Please don't tell me they are all far right, thick racists because I don't think they are.

@1dayatatime
What I understand from "closing the border" is a significantly restricting the level of legal migration resulting in a large reduction but not a "stop".

They mean stop people coming in.

illegal migration by definition is illegal and cannot so easily be stopped however it can be discouraged.

Illegal immigrants have overstayed their visas. It's not illegal to claim asylum in the UK.

So let's say we significantly restrict legal migration. On the point you raised about a reduction in the number of foreign students then Universities will find the adjustment hard, but they will have to focus on providing quality and good value education to UK students as they previously did rather than relying on ( or even exploiting) cash cow foreign students to balance their budgets.

All the best with that.

Let's take skill shortages- there are always skill shortages and redundant skills in any economy that's how the labour market works. Right now there's a shortage of brick layers and AI engineers and a surplus of say law graduates. But in sectors of shortage then wages rise and vice versa and people retrain - this is all perfectly normal.

If wages rise in sectors which have a shortage, why aren't the wages of nurses through the roof? We have a nursing crisis and import nurses from abroad.

We're importing labour not training people up because that means investment and the government aren't investing.

Yes there would be disruption in the short term as employers realise then can no longer use immigration as a low cost quick fix instead of using higher salaries and training.

There wouldn't be anyone who could fill essential roles in the NHS or to take jobs in the hospitality sector. I agree that we need to pay higher salaries but the argument against that is that businesses would push up prices and move out of the UK.

But it will avoid the long term cost of providing medical support and state pensions to those migrants in later years who have legitimately earned their right to and are perfectly entitled to these benefits by working in the UK and paying taxes.

This doesn't make sense.

We have more than enough people in the UK to perform all these roles, it's just that either UK nationals don't want to do them for the salaries offered or employers don't want to increase salaries to the levels demanded by UK nationals.

We don't have enough people of working age because of our low birth rate.

@Hatfullofwillow

"Have you not read this thread? Or even your own muddy justifications for supporting Yaxley Lennon and his backers."

And there you have the standard left wing answer to anyone who raises concerns about levels of immigration even if you logically and clearly explain the reasons for this as I have done.

Rather than enter into a rational counter argument on this, you simply shout "racist" or in this case "a muddy justification".

For your information I am not interested in justifying Tommy Robinson, he is simply a symptom not a cause. What I am interested in is understanding and addressing the root cause of the support for him rather than just shouting "racist" because of a lack intellectual ability to do anything more analytical.

@username1478

"However, generally on a march instigated by Robinson and his ilk, they're not arguments put forward. They want to close the borders.

If we close the borders we have no foreign students and no one to fill gaps in the labour market. It would take a while to implement changes and even given those, we don't have enough people in the country to fulfil all the roles."

Firstly I think we can all agree that "closing the border " cannot literally mean closing the border because otherwise no could go on holiday abroad or come to the UK on holiday or for business etc etc.

What I understand from "closing the border" is a significantly restricting the level of legal migration resulting in a large reduction but not a "stop". Illegal migration by definition is illegal and cannot so easily be stopped however it can be discouraged.

So let's say we significantly restrict legal migration. On the point you raised about a reduction in the number of foreign students then Universities will find the adjustment hard, but they will have to focus on providing quality and good value education to UK students as they previously did rather than relying on ( or even exploiting) cash cow foreign students to balance their budgets.

Let's take skill shortages- there are always skill shortages and redundant skills in any economy that's how the labour market works. Right now there's a shortage of brick layers and AI engineers and a surplus of say law graduates. But in sectors of shortage then wages rise and vice versa and people retrain - this is all perfectly normal.

Yes there would be disruption in the short term as employers realise then can no longer use immigration as a low cost quick fix instead of using higher salaries and training. But it will avoid the long term cost of providing medical support and state pensions to those migrants in later years who have legitimately earned their right to and are perfectly entitled to these benefits by working in the UK and paying taxes.

We have more than enough people in the UK to perform all these roles, it's just that either UK nationals don't want to do them for the salaries offered or employers don't want to increase salaries to the levels demanded by UK nationals.

If the right don't want to be dismissed as racist then they should maybe stop racialising the debate.

Just look at how the migration debate is framed. Legal migration makes up the vast majority of migration to the UK, visa overstayers are the biggest group of 'illegal migrants,' with asylum seekers making up less than 4% in total.

So, who do the right focus on? Asylum seekers, of course. And why? Because they’re mainly brown and Muslim, which plays into their narrative. You'll very rarely hear someone attending a UK patriot march or GB news presenter calling for a cap on white migrants from North America, Australia or Europe.

We've been pandering to the right’s intolerances for well over a decade, which why we're now dealing with this insidious rise of intolerance and hate. The root causes of their discontent are well known, but they're not interested debate or solutions, they just want someone to blame and take their anger out on.

If you're going to ignore the evidence, constantly make the debate about race, religion, or culture, and keep voting for people who openly lie to you (let’s not forget the tories increased these numbers over the years despite the anti-immigration rhetoric), you’re going to end up being dismissed as racist and ignorant.

How about employers increased salaries or improved working conditions or improved training instead.

That would be a left wing approach, and something Labour are at least attempting to improve with their worker's rights bill. What has been the response from the right? Oh yes, to cry that this is 'anti-business,' 'anti-growth,' and will lead to 'economic ruin'.

It really saddens me quite how polarised our society is becoming. I see a general discontent in the population that bubbled to the surface during the summer riots. The rioters were dealt with promptly but I don't think that general discontent has been addressed. Words such as fascist, thick, stupid, far right, far left are banded about much too easily. It seems we just can't have a sensible debate about anything that people may have legitimate concerns about.

I don't know, to be honest. And neither do I much care.

To be fair, he's probably used that on his Indian passport. Isn't he Paul Harris on his Irish one?

CowboyJoanna · Yesterday 21:46

YABU Hes not a thug,

Hmm, what would you call a man with a number of convictions for violence, who engages in mob violence, including being a football hooligan, in the past?

Ghandi?

Have you not read this thread? Or even your own muddy justifications for supporting Yaxley Lennon and his backers.

Immigration isn't the reason for low wages, the rolling back of working conditions or the underfunding of education & training.

However, generally on a march instigated by Robinson and his ilk, they're not arguments put forward. They want to close the borders.

So they are thick then.

How about employers increased salaries or improved working conditions or improved training instead.

I agree that we should increase wages, train people up in needed skills and improve training.

However, generally on a march instigated by Robinson and his ilk, they're not arguments put forward. They want to close the borders.

If we close the borders we have no foreign students and no one to fill gaps in the labour market. It would take a while to implement changes and even given those, we don't have enough people in the country to fulfil all the roles.

The root causes of their discontent are lack of investment and lack of distribution of wealth. Instead of pointing the finger at the government, they're pointing at immigrants. This is encouraged by the right wing press and politicians because it lets them off the hook.

@Hatfullofwillow

"No, support for Tommy Robinson comes from racists who blame immigrants of colour for the failings of our social & economic policies over the last 60 years"

That's the irony of it.

The left dismisses those protesting against immigration levels as thick when the left itself doesn't possess the level of intellectual ability to understand what might be the root causes behind their discontent - far easier just to dismiss the protesters as all racists even when it includes people of colour.

The left also dismisses any protests against levels of immigration as racist failing to see the irony that importing labour to work in jobs that are either unpleasant or unsafe or under paid is exploitative and racist.

How about employers increased salaries or improved working conditions or improved training instead.

No, support for Tommy Robinson comes from racists who blame immigrants of colour for the failings of our social & economic policies over the last 60 years.

@Hatfullofwillow

"The unemployed aren't part of the economically inactive."

I am aware of that, but if you read the article it shows that those that are unemployed are much more likely to suffer from ill health than those that are employed. As a result unemployment turns into long term sick.

The point is that the arrogance of those who believe that the economically inactive are incapable or unsuitable of employment and are simply written off is what creates support for the likes of Tommy Robinson.

Importing skilled and unskilled labour through immigration because it is cheaper or saves training costs or because the jobs are unpleasant is exploitative and racist.

I'd say that's because Reform aren't explicitly anti Muslim.

These people are not intelligent. History is littered with useful idiots being exploited by the likes of Tommeh Ten-Names. People like him have a knack for making stupid people feel clever and relevant.

If it was like all the other far-right rallys that I've had the misfortune to engage with as part of my old job, about a third of the attendees will have been pissed since 9am, the other two-thirds will have been a mixed salad of social inadequates and those with LeGiTaMaTe CoNCerNs about too many brown people, especially Muslims pressure on local services, housing and infrastructure.