Has anyone ever been to a messy church event?

@Londonrach1 jesus ain’t gonna like that hun

Yes ...it's great messy play without a messy house. No mention of God just fun for kids

Does that include mosques, synagogues and Hindu temples to be deconsecrated?

yes, absolutely in principle all religion is shit, but there are an AWFUL lot of churches in the UK and really not so many of the others. I’d be more than happy if the amount of active churches was reduced to the amount of active mosques or synagogues for sure.

Does that include mosques, synagogues and Hindu temples to be deconsecrated?

@Carouselfish yes it sounds like it shouldn't be called "Messy Church" if it isn't part of the official scheme.
Who was running the one you went too?

@Carouselfish Messy Church is a specific type of worship run in churches.
It's not just some art activities that are "messy". Here's what part of their website says. Your description doesn't sound like what it is apparently meant to be.
(I'm not a Christian so I have never been to one. I just looked it up out of curiosity)

Oh I see it's actually a trademarked 'thing'. Clearly my local one has just been doing their own version. Someone should stop them!!! 🤣

The organised one clearly states it's not a craft club. Definitely about religion!

There are some cultural aspects within Christianity at play here that I think you're missing. That passage is indeed likely to be interpreted by many as the author's reminder to 'do something good for other people because of Jesus'.

It's a huge misunderstanding to think that having a good time and making a new friend would be deemed a worthless outcome! Even by the churches that do use MC as a tool for evangelism (an approach that I also disagree with).

Oh they are here! Just a room off the main bit of the church filled with awful trays of things!!

Is yours just 'messy' in the sense of a bit of glue and play doh?

@Carouselfish that's not quite what "Messy Church" is.

I fucking hate messy play in a church or not. My kids always used to manage to injure themselves because there'd be stupid things like.plastic trays filled with shaving foam and theyd slip over backwards or something. Or there'd be rice crispies that every child had rubbed themselves through and my child would be the one eating them. Ugh Just don't understand what's good about it. Thank god mine are too old for it now.
Anyway, sorry OP, no it's not religion required to attend the church ones. They just used them like community centres.

I looked on the messy church website and it says open to everyone, then looked at my local one and it says 4-11 year olds only.

confused

I used to take dd to the local one, it was a fun, free event with free food and I was a skint single parent so 🤷‍♀️

We're not religious but I do like the community aspect to church.

When I think of doing something "for the glory of Christ", I think of doing something to help others without expecting anything in return. I'd be the first to admit that I'm not terribly good at that, but I think that definition is fairly universal.

It's not the same as doing something for the glory of the church, and it's the polar opposite of doing something for the glory of yourself.

Whatever we do to the most vulnerable people we encounter, we are doing that to Him, whether we would acknowledge it or not. So to the point about a Muslim food bank being a waste of time - no, if they are helping people in need then they are glorifying Christ.

If some of these families choose to turn to Christianity as a result of attending the free events then that can surely be a good thing

Why?

Yes, it's quite incredible when they say the quiet part out loud.

To be clear, I'm sure there any plenty of helpers at these kind of events who are a bit woolly about the theology and are just trying to be kind, but the dogma says otherwise. It's there in black and white.

They shouldn't do all the work of catering for people, tidying up messy events etc if Christ is not the reason for THEM doing it. I think this is very different.

Yeah, it's slightly different, but still awful. It's saying that it's not enough to just do a good thing for other people. It says that organising this event for other people is literally a waste of time unless you are doing it "for the glory of Christ."

That's as grim as fuck. It means that these Christians think a Muslim, Hindu or secular community event - a community playgroup or a food bank or any caring activity - is "heartless/a waste of time." They don't care about the people they're helping. They only care about their status in the eyes of their god.

@lightsandtunnels she posted the full quote and it’s the same as this and clearly does mean what she interpreted it as. Unless it’s driving people towards becoming religious then there’s no point. Because it’s all for Jesus. FI

I think a quote (from the Messy Church website) has been slightly mis represented by a PP. The full quote is ...

"But the mystery (and annoying thing and huge relief all at the same time) is that we could do all that work and do it brilliantly but it would STILL be a waste of time, fruitless, rootless and heartless unless Christ is the reason for doing it, the means of doing it and his glory the outcome of doing it."

So, it's not saying that it is rootless and heartless if people go to messy church if Christ is not the reason for THEM choosing to go - but that the Messy Church event should be built up by church leaders with Christ being the reason for it. They shouldn't do all the work of catering for people, tidying up messy events etc if Christ is not the reason for THEM doing it. I think this is very different.

Of course there will be an element of Christianity as it is Messy Church and not an event in the church hall with the word Church not in the title. Again very different things.

Churches are often now full on community hubs offering way more than a Sunday service; think food banks, clothes banks, lunches and dinners etc. and special family events that are often free. I think it would be a real shame if Churches did close as I know of many in my local area that are hugely supportive of families. If some of these families choose to turn to Christianity as a result of attending the free events then that can surely be a good thing if it is what they are choosing to do. If you don't believe in Church, messy or otherwise then that's absolutely fine. I do worry though that some people often think that Churches have a terrible hidden agenda and are very negative about it when actually it could be something rather wonderful. We all have a choice.

Yes, we're completely non-religious and have always had fun there! Everyone is friendly and the God stuff doesn't get pushed too hard. Be careful though, they lure you in with the free biscuits and before you know it, you're joining in with the hymns.

Firstly this is happening in many places.

Secondly many churches halls are fully booked every might of the week by scouts/guides, slimming world, ballroom dancing, yoga, U3A, Probus etc. The loss of these spaces as churches are sold for conversion to flats is becoming a real problem especially as it coincides with councils reducing school let's and closing community centres due to budget cuts.

I don't know how you can read the passage I quoted above and pretend it means your second intention, "to serve and support others as an inherent good."

That would be a laudable intention. But the passage literally says the opposite.

Unless "the glory of Jesus" is the outcome it is a heartless waste of time. If someone just goes along and has a good time, makes a new friend, that's deemed to be worthless.

I’d like to see the vast majority of churches de-Christened (or whatever the actual word is) and be turned into community buildings that everyone can enjoy. Churches are empty 95% of the time and it’s a waste of space. So few people go to them just consolidate to one or two an area and give the rest back to the community to maintain and enjoy.

These people don't see any inherent value in putting on activities for your kid. They literally think it's a waste of time to take part - it's "heartless" - unless it's done for their religious reasons. I think it's instructive to read why this is happening and it is ONLY to spread their religion.

It's not really possible to generalise about CofE volunteers and churches to a 'these people' and 'ONLY' extent, whatever the website says. It's called a broad church for a reason. Some churches are definitely motivated by evangelism. Others will see messy church as a way of serving the community because, like other religions, Christianity encourages its members to serve and support others as an inherent good. The christianese in the passage that you quoted covers both motivations. But I can see why it would be off putting if you object to any form of evangelism.

@MasterBeth yes but "Messy Church" is part of the church services - so of course it will be about Christianity and Jesus. The same as if you went to a regular Sunday service.
It's different to a playgroup being held in the church hall which may or may not be run by anyone connected to the church (which is what I think @ihaveliterallynoidea was talking about).