I don't know what to think about this - Some parents need to be nannied by the state

Mandatory parenting classes on the basics. Continuing with sure start that is incentivised. An open door policy for support without judgment.

We have lost a safety net and support system in the church, which helped many families and children only a generation or two ago… we need to give our dc the best start possible and that means looking after the parents, especially mothers who mostly carry the bulk of the load even today.

This is a good point. I have a child with severe ASD and GDD. I'd like to attend support groups to meet other parents and to chat through with an expert about his behaviour, but they all bloody run in work hours. I have a flexible employer, bit it would be so much more easier if I could just access in an evening or weekend. So many parents of SEN children have to give up work because there just isn't holiday/school clubs, support groups, appointment outside working hours. Most of the information/support groups don't allow kids, which doesn't help working single parents.

If we are going to deliver advice, we need to think about how we can get this to working parents.

Absolutely this.
Many years ago I worked in a supervisory role and an employee came to me for help filling in some DSS forms. She admitted she couldn't write and could barely read, I had never realised, she was the person I left in charge when I was away, very switched on and unbelievable memory - she could remember a huge list of responsibilities, nothing escaped her.
But I wonder how someone like that would fare now, everything is so complicated and internet based, you need to know how the system works and have the tenacity to keep at people in order to get the help needed.
My parents both left school at 14, my Mum who is really intelligent, struggles with everyday stuff being online based, my Dad wouldn't have clue.

I'm middle class, a teacher, had kids in late 30's. I went to a Sure Start free parenting class (including free crèche and refreshments!) and it taught me so much. The tutors said a lot of techniques used for toddlers would also come in handy when they were teenagers...it was very very true! I also transferred skills I learned there into my teaching.. active listening, giving choices, commenting on good behaviour 10x more than bad. It was fantastic and breaks my heart that Sure Start finished...

My youngest has a disability that means he has missed quite a bit of school time, it is shocking to see how quickly a child falls behind educationally and even more shocking that there is no mechanism for lifting them back up again. We have managed as I have had long periods out of work to support him. Initially he was just pushed into lower and lower sets. But we scrimped for tutors and we could help. Now he is older he can catch himself up.
But for those kids whose parents can't provide that? And the children who start out already behind, how can they ever catch up.

This.

Also on here there are parents and in RL who talk about kids catching up with no support but every child I knew that did had external help of some kind including mine. After a while it morphs to some kids just aren't academic so no reason to support them.

I caught up - dyslexia not diagnosed till Uni - with mix of school and home support but I think those days are gone. Depending where you are support can be viewed as pushy parenting or unfair and heavily criticized - so families stay quiet then get pointed at as examples of kids who "naturally" caught up.

I retrained as a counsellor instead and now work with teens.

Family support workers are a proper paid job and are still employed in most local authorities - they also work for charity run children's centres.

You're thinking of the charity Home Start - it wasn't related to Sure Start and still successfully operates across the country.

It was such a good idea to invest in the early years and apparently research showed that the positive effects were still showing when kids who been to Sure Start centres reached GCSE age. My ex had a niece who was a young single mum and Sure Start turned her life around, she made friends, got support and felt far more confident in her parenting. They weren't around when I was a single mum but if they had been I don't doubt I would have used and benefitted from it

I did this 🙂 I loved it. If it was a proper paid job I would have retrained to do it professionally

I think children do get an expectation of what they might do when they grow up from parents though. In some families it's just the norm to go to university, so they expect to do it. Or it is the norm in their friendship group. Parents can definitely subtly affect life choices, whether they mean to or not

This is very true. I also think that teachers play a big role though - how many times have celebrities talked about their teachers inspiring them - or indeed the opposite and saying they'd never amount to anything.

People always say "you can't be what you can't see" but actually I think that's untrue. You can't be what other people tell you you can't be. It's down to parents, teachers and other adults in kids' lives to encourage them to aspire to things.

I don't know why people become so fixated on the closure of Sure Start when one of the principal reasons they were closed was that they were used primarily by the middle-class parents who didn't need them

The principal reason they closed was because the Coalition government at the time wanted to save a lot of money as part of the austerity drive.

It wasn't just the centres though, there was a scheme where volunteers went into family homes, for a couple of hours a week, as say a grandmother or aunty would, to support families who had no extended family support, very young mothers who had been in care, or other difficult family situations. So better off families wouldn't be offered this.

My children are older - youngest is a late teen - but there could be all sorts of issues. I think parents of young children definitely have a lot less time to spend at home now. When I first became a parent, one parent tended to have a lot more time off work for the first few years, or worked 2 or 3 days a week at most. Our local nursery only accepted children from age 2 at the earliest. I didn't know any parents with a baby at nursery, for example. Not being available does make things like potty training more difficult.

I think children do get an expectation of what they might do when they grow up from parents though. In some families it's just the norm to go to university, so they expect to do it. Or it is the norm in their friendship group. Parents can definitely subtly affect life choices, whether they mean to or not.

It is ridiculous that in the 21st century schools are having to do teeth brushing for whole classes + potty train kids.
There is a significant minority of parents who simply believe that it isn't their job to parent their own children and that the state should do everything. I'm sorry but no matter how poor you are you can afford toothpaste + a basic brush for your child (£2 for a basic kids brush + tube of toothpaste).
The more the state (schools) step in then the bigger the incentive is for that minority of parents to continue not to bother.
Sure Starts were great and we need them back but ultimately some people won't take the help.

I completely disagree.

Overwhelmingly parents from ALL social backgrounds want their children to have good lives and be happy.

But in some communities educational failure is so culturally normalised that parents simply can't perceive the damage that's being done.

Or they simply can't find a way of making things change for the better.

Blaming the poor educational outcomes of white working class children in the UK on nothing more than the character failings of their parents leaves us nowhere.

Chippy, much? 🤔🤣

I was surprised by the pp’s view. I remember when the coalition government came in and took a wrecking ball to public services, particularly those that aimed to reduce inequality. A lot of it was an ostentatious effort to show that there was a regime change and to dismantle the attempts of the previous administration to - ironically - level up. There was no evidence behind closing Sure Start. It was ideological nastiness.

Plus the ehcp process you pretty much need a law degree to navigate the system and understand the children and families act and how to appeal to tribunal. Children with very clear needs are turned down for ehcp assessments and many parents just aren’t capable of going to appeal. But instead of recognising that as an issue and helping all children it’s been been dressed up as more parent blaming, “middle class parents gaming their system to get their children a golden ticket ehcp”

Indeed. Also see: state education.

There really needs to be more support in schools too. TAs in every class, small catch up groups.

My youngest has a disability that means he has missed quite a bit of school time, it is shocking to see how quickly a child falls behind educationally and even more shocking that there is no mechanism for lifting them back up again. We have managed as I have had long periods out of work to support him. Initially he was just pushed into lower and lower sets. But we scrimped for tutors and we could help. Now he is older he can catch himself up.
But for those kids whose parents can't provide that? And the children who start out already behind, how can they ever catch up.

It’s truly depressing that we managed to create something that genuinely made a difference and then threw away all the progress that had been made.

Sure Start

https://ifs.org.uk/articles/sure-start-achieved-its-aims-then-we-threw-it-away#:~:text=Introduced%20in%201999%2C%20it%20was,their%20life%20chances%20and%20development.

I absolutely agree that trade jobs are a valid and valuable choice....but saying that they are the ONLY choices for "the likes of us" is neither valid not valuable.

That was definitely the Tory reason for shutting children's centres, but it wasn't my experience of working in one with a nursery attached.
Yes, there were some middle class parents that attended - which was fine, they're people too. They were part of the community. Their children would be going to school with the working class children so why shouldn't they go to playgroup and nursery with them?
There was a limit on how many paying places there were in the nursery for example, I think 25% self funded 75% funded for 2 year olds.

The vast majority of families supported were ones in need - teen parent groups, English for speakers of other languages, supporting your child with maths homework, parenting classes, breastfeeding support - but also some toddler groups or baby massage available for the whole community.