I don't know what to think about this - Some parents need to be nannied by the state

The Sure Start children's centres were brilliant. It would be interesting to follow up on the families and children who accessed them and see where they are now.

My dd is adopted. Birth parents both fairly below average intelligence and other more specific learning difficulties. No idea what my dd's IQ is but her reading and Maths are both currently way above average and she's a very clever, inquisitive child. I basically never shut up when she was a baby and even now at age 6 we read together for at least 20 minutes to half an hour a day. Intelligence is hereditry but you can make a huge difference with responsive and involved parenting. It's not all about going to university either. It's about being happy, confident and sociable. There's tonnes of evidence that the better you do at school the better your chances with all the above.

Start at the beginning indeed, I have recently moved to France and the way they treat children is entirely different to the UK. The free services are incredible, MJC centres have incredible clean and engaging activities available for free and free babysitting. Crèche is charged depending on income and is low as 30 cent an hour for poor family’s and maternelle is free and compulsory from three years of age where children get a three course healthy (often organic) meal at lunch time. There are flaws like the shockingly short maternity leave and people complain about the taxes but we could certainly learn something from the French way.

That made me laught, @DiscontentedPig

@Youcantcallacatspider Another thing that I loved with my child was the free library rhyme-time sessions. Our council now has almost entirely volunteer-led libraries so this has naturally gone.

This must be such a post code lottery, I live in London so I’m sure people jump to the London MC elite tripe but the borough is one of the most deprived areas in the country and it’s coming down with library’s and free library classes. I have 3 libraries within walking distance and they have a toddler/ baby class each day.
Sure starts weren’t a thing with my first I think largely due to covid but now that my second is a baby there is a whole range of council funded support groups, stay and plays or classes, I’ve been pleasantly surprised this time as all I’ve heard is that there is none of this stuff anymore!

"35 per cent could not correctly identify Cambridge as a top-flight university."

Did their parents go to Oxford?

So at what point do you decide to not help these children?

Exactly.... And are they forgetting that genetics also play a huge role in intelligence and attainment? With all the will in the world, if a child is just not that intelligent, they're not going to be achieving brilliant exam results and going to prestigious universities.

Evidence, please?

This is a problem with many interventions and services aimed at adults. Adult social services have faced the same problems with conventional service provision being focussed on the needs and expectations of the white middle-class.

The answer isn't to chuck the baby out with the bath water by removing the service entirely, it's to adapt the provision to meet the needs of a wider audience.

I'm not exactly sure where you stand on this OP but I think the benefit of strong early years support is vastly underestimated. There is tonnes of evidence that good quality early years care benefits all children. Sure start centres I imagine really helped not only for parents to gain the tools necessary to raise a child well but also just to get them out of the house and meeting like-minded parents. Lots of people can't afford £10 a week to chuck a bit of tin foil and sticklebricks at their baby in a baby sensory lesson. Services like this definitely bridged the gap. Another thing that I loved with my child was the free library rhyme-time sessions. Our council now has almost entirely volunteer-led libraries so this has naturally gone. I agree that as a parent the responsibility ultimately lies with you to do what's best for your child but I do think in an already very overwhelmed society it's really sad that these quite little things that can make a massive difference are being overlooked.

I'm amused by the subtext of the article is that the proper aim of parenting should be to produce future readers of the The Times. As someone who works in less prestigious universities that still do a good job of turning out useful graduates, including teachers and healthcare professionals, I really don't think we need a society consisting solely of Oxbridge Classics and PPE graduates.

That said, it is frustrating to have children potentially miss out on life opportunities because they don't know they are there and don't have anyone to tell them.

I agree so much with everything you've said here. I see some of the families like this around me and they aren't going to change things because they don't see the need. It's getting the children into different environments, and giving them that guidance as soon as possible that makes the difference.

DS high school is a good school. But in our area we also have two long-standing outstanding schools with smaller catchment zones (in the more expensive parts of town). However, his school has been working really really hard to improve things, has lots of investment etc over the last few years and they're making fantastic progress. I attended a talk there last year where they were providing some information on some feedback and analysis they'd been doing on their performance. One thing they were completely open about was that where they have NOT yet reached a sufficiently high standard is in supporting their children to present themselves better. He didn't say anything about the socio-economic reality of our school vs some of the other schools, but I understood it. As a school though, they're now trying really hard to compensate for this because they're fully awsare that even when they're getting grades up (which they are) and improving the progress children make (whcih they're doing brilliantly), they now have to help these children learn other soft skills too.

I come from a poor and uneducated family, I was academically brilliant and got no guidance from school on what to do other than a vague 'you could be a teacher', I assume their attention was elsewhere. I had to teach myself everything about education including realising that I could go to uni and how to get there, what careers were out there because all I knew was manual and service work.

I had actively been taught the wrong behaviours by my parents - don't ask people questions, don't think too highly of yourself, work hard and you'll get noticed. It took years for me to realise and even longer to change.

I do think some families don't have the time or knowledge to guide their DC. I don't think you'd be able to educate the parents on this, they're too busy working and caring. I also think most are too busy to go to sure start. The solution is to get those kids into formal settings as often as possible, around me there's always been more free hours for lower income households.

Then there's teens. I think mentoring is the way to go. A glimpse into another world and some practical advice on how to get there.

I think the reading thing is usually linked to children’s exposure in their early years, not when they are teenagers.

The problem with things like Surestart and parenting courses is that we can't simultaneously be pushing mothers back into work/jobseeking 2 weeks after they give birth (a la the rules on JSA/the JS component of UC) and at the same time expecting them to have free time in the day to go to playgroups and other centres to attend this stuff.

These sorts of places need weekend opening times to actually make a difference for parents who aren't long-term sick/unemployable. Literally everything for young children happens within the standard working week. This means families living chaotic lives, perhaps also below the poverty line, but working (perhaps irregular hours but nonetheless having to keep that time free) are unable to access this stuff.

If we want a parent to spend quality time giving children a good start and going to all these initiatives, we need to make those initiatives work for parents in work/who have to be available for work.

I did a course with Sure Start taking up a spare space after the initial targeting at families in need of additional support. It really did make a difference to those mums' confidence and parenting skills. I remember some of them chatting about going to the breast feeding support group that kept them breast feeding beyond 6m- they hadn't even initially had breast feeding on their agenda early in pregnancy. Babies were fed with formula and that was that in their previous experience.

It turned out that DS1 has additional needs and although the course wasn't revolutionary to me, it was a great reassurance that I had been covering the fundamentals of developing his social and communication skills when they were delayed.

I was parenting with no village. I could afford some commercial activities, but access to free/ cheap library and Sure Start activities helped me get out most days, have social contact and benefit DS's development.

Parents can only raise children with the resources that they have- financial, skills and knowledge. It's not an even playing field out there and Sure Start was a very approachable way of adjusting that playing field. I'd love to see a return of it.

DS1 was born 2010, DS2 2013 so they both benefited at the tail end of the scheme. I notice at my youth groups that parents of younger children who didn't have Sure Start opportinities are much more anxious as parents, far more fussy and have far less confidence about child development. Life has become more pressured and financially tighter for most social groups.

I think surely parents with higher education do read more books to their DC..and probably a wider range of books. So it will be a bit of both.

Dc3 has read about 5 books for pleasure in the last 8 years - I'm not even sure they've actually fully read any of them. Has never read for pleasure. Just got 2 x A stars and an A at A level including an essay subject!

As a sidenote, I think this is what the Princess of Wales is really focused on too. I think she looks even earlier at the very very early years, but isn't this her big project - the reality that we need to support families much earlier?

DS incidentally has ADHD and isn't terribly academic. He HATES reading. And yet, it turns out he has a vocabulary significantly higher than average and is reading at a level slightly above his age. The Educational Psychologist who assessed him told me that the single biggest factor for children's vocab in her experience is parental education. Which is interesting because we're always being told it's reading. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle (my parents weren't highly educated, but we all read a lot. Me and DH are both highly educated so perhaps that compensates for DS not reading!)

We need compulsory daytime education/care orders for children (from any age) don’t meet the threshold for removal from parents but who have parents who are not able to do the basics day in day out. Being able to get children into nursery for 8 hours a day away from parents who have chaotic lifestyles but want to do the right thing would be transformative.

What’s wrong with middle class people also accessing sure start centres? I think it’s much more beneficial for parents and children both to mix with a broader section of society than they might previously be able to.
I know when I was young we were very working class in a very WC area, where you don’t know anyone with a professional job and it feeds into the idea of possible attainment.
In the most idealistic way sure start centres should support everyone and be a 3rd space for parents and carers to receive non structured support also by meeting other people and being exposed to other ideas and lifestyles.

But it should not be about everyone being high academic acheivers. Or shoehorning those with top grades into Oxbridge. We need people to build things, make things, invent things, make food, serve coffee, deliver things, give good health and social care and to build a more equal society. We need a thriving Further Education sector which the Tories cut massively.

I think it’s totally uncontroversial to say that having “connections” helps young people get on, that having parents who understand the university system helps them make the right choice and get in and on. Etc etc. But somehow saying “having parents who don’t understand how university works holds poorer kids back” is controversial.

Supporting is not stigmatising. Pointing out differences between parents is not blaming parents for those differences, merely a necessary condition for helping to address them. Schools alone can’t narrow the gaps between children from different families.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. But if Labour dare to tread here, this is not how it will be characterised.

I have also come across a huge "not for the likes of us" attitude from many people - university is for mugs, for people who are stuck up, why do you need an education anyway, do you think you're too good for manual labour, are you saying there's something wrong with working in a factory/warehouse/shop your whole life?

Reverse snobbery is absolutely a real issue. As you say, there's going to be a lot of parents who generationally have been taught "I never went to university/had an education, it hasn't done me any harm..."

What needs to be fixed is the default belief that university is the be-all and end-all. It's not.

I went to university, my husband didn't. Personally, I don't think I will be pushing my kid into uni unless she really wants to go. I'd rather she did an apprenticeship or something where she can learn and earn.

What needs to be resolved is perhaps options for training in non-academic careers. Where's the financial support/training available to help kids become lorry drivers/bus drivers? What help is available to train someone up to become a plumber/electrician or other tradey? Those job roles are just as essential.

The writer of this article was so patronising and unable to see any other perspective, it was embarrassing to read.