To think gentle parenting is actually permissive

Yes.. validate the feelings that are worth getting upset about (hurt themselves, scared of getting an injection etc). But excessive sympathy over trivial stuff just makes the child think there's something to be upset about when there simply isn't. They don't need to be upset about letting a friend have a go on something or not being allowed to hog all of the toys or not being allowed a biscuit right before dinner.

I might say in a cheery tone "I know you don't like it but you have to share, give X one if those toys" or "no biscuits now as we're about to have dinner" or "time to let X have a turn now, you can have a turn again later". There are all the other tactics like choices, distraction etc and help model the behaviour and show them how to play kindly together.

What gentle parenting definitely doesn't do is shame, threats, disproportionate punishments, lies. So "why are you so whiny all the time" "why can't you share nicely like other children" "if you don't share nicely Santa will see " "If you eat too many biscuits your tummy will hurt". A lot of so called gentle parents lie to their kids to avoid conflict. Gentle parenting is about being honest and respectful.

Realistically, most parents blend parenting styles. Few parents are able to adhere to one style 24/7. Gentle parenting isn't supposed to be permissive, but it can tip over into it when parents are tired, don't want another battle, are naturally conflict avoidant and have to work at the boundaries and discipline side of parenting, etc. There are also some times when even the most hardcore gentle parenting types have to be an authoritative (not the same as authoritarian) parent - when a child's behaviour is putting their own or others' safety at risk, for example.

A "lighthouse" parenting style that blended empathy, containment, consistency and clear boundaries worked much better for us than either the gentle or authoritative styles, neither seemed to fit us. With two autistic DC, there needed to be some set routines and rules and consistency and we needed to provide that safe harbour and dependable familiarity when the world outside our family unit and home was unpredictable. Of course we didn't always do it perfectly, as none of us do!

Sure adults do it, I never said they didn't, it's not good though is it? Not behaviour I want to encourage.

Adults also lie, cheat, are rude, selfish etc and I try not to encourage those behaviours either.

Being whiny, unless genuinely hungry or in pain, is something I actively want to repress in my kids. I'm a secondary teacher and I've seen the minority of kids who still have this behaviour (whiny, entitled) by that age and it ain't pretty.

I took a quote from the research that you linked to. This is my area of study/work. I haven't read any papers where authoritative parenting is defined by no punishments and therefore 'gentle parenting'. I think the current research shows that gentle parenting can be as effective as authoritative parenting when strong boundaries are held and enforced but to be honest there is no long term research into gentle parenting that I have seen, it's all in its infancy. Gentle parenting should not be confused with authoritative parenting academically though, it is separate to both permissive and authoritative parenting.

I've already said up thread I would only empathise with the two of my children who it helps.

Sometimes I might whine to my husband about the endless train delays on my commute and when he listens and empathises it helps me to feel better and I stop my moaning.

We're talking about toddlers here. If my toddler feels hard done by because he can't have another biscuit it isn't too hard for me to offer a little empathy so that he can move on.

Fine if it came from Diana, whatever. But current thinking on authoritative parenting isn’t about ‘punishment’. It’s about natural consequence discipline which is not the same thing.

At no point in any of my studies were any of those things recommended. The general line is that gentle parenting is authoritative parenting. Academically.

I think gentle parenting can work or not work depending on the parent and child and their interpretation of it. Some of the stock phrases really annoy me though. "I can see you're having big feelings right now", "kind hands"....

I do think parents often seem to have very low expectations from their kids though and they are capable of things earlier than modern parents expect.

I have. Have your ever stood on a train platform when there’s been a delay? Or worked in customer service when you have to tell the customer that they can’t have exactly that they want? Children are hearing all of that too.

Not all.adults whine all the time - it's very unattractive when they do! Have you not heard of the stiff upper lip?

Yes I agree with this. Gentle parenting leads to worse behaviour in some toddlers but it pays off when they are older and have always been treated respectfully and told the truth to.
Children learn by example and not by what you tell them.

But adults whine all the time? We whine about our workload, about having to do the shopping / cook the tea, about public transport delays, about not being able to afford a holiday, about traffic, about arranging school holiday childcare, etc etc.

Not being allowed a biscuit to a child is probably no less irritating than us having to sit in traffic.

The references on the link you showed me references Diana Baumrind's research over and over. From your link.

Parents belonging to the first cluster (Fig. 2) scored above average on positive parenting, rules and discipline; and scored below average on harsh punishment. A visual inspection of the cluster plot did not reveal notable differences between mothers and fathers. These parents show warmth and involvement in their interaction with their child, but at the same time set clear rules and expectations for children’s behavior. They also discipline the child’s undesirable behavior, but rarely use strict physical punishment when doing so. Because these parents demonstrate elevated support and (adequate) behavioral control levels, we labeled this parenting style as the congruent authoritative parenting style.

Authoritative parenting doesn't exclude using time outs or spanking as long as it is not 'overly harsh'.

It looks a lot like lazy parenting to onlookers.

Oh dooooooooioooon’t do that daaaaaarling
Kind hands sweetheart
I know that makes you sad when we can’t do what we want
oh I know you don’t want to put you coat on.
Rewarding tantrums with hugs

So tired of shitty non-parenting parents and their feral kids

Agreed, and it's also very tedious to be around. When my children have shut up about the biscuits I can't be doing with other children whinging on and on about them 😂 Especially when it's obvious that the whiner is miserable and the children who knew there was no point in whining are off enjoying themselves.

The thing is, if a child is whining about not having a biscuit, he is being unreasonable. It's not the biscuit itself so much as the entitlement and demand.

Withholding the biscuit, but indulging the behaviour (whining, being entitled, etc) is permissive parenting, imo.

I think sometimes parents think "I was so firm, I didn't give him the biscuit so i didn't reward that behaviour" but actually it's still basically rewarding his behaviour if you're validating/encouraging the whining.

Like Aunt Petunia placating Dudley for not giving him enough birthday presents. It doesn't matter whether or not she buys more presents. Just the placating is permissive already.

And before anyone says, yes yes, not True Gentle Parenting, etc etc

Her theory was from 1966. What I have laid out to you is the current accepted theory of the four different types of parenting styles. I studied this four years ago and have kept up to date (loosely) since.

Diana Baumrind was the researcher who came up with the parenting axis and whose research showed that authoritative parenting had the best outcomes. You are welcome to Google and read her papers.

Authoritative and Authoritarian are not the same thing. The latter is punishments, the former is gentle. Also, appropriate, natural consequence discipline and punishments are not the same thing.

I have no idea who you’re talking about, but these are the four accepted types of parenting. Here’s a scientific paper for you outlining each type and as you’ll see, authoritative is much like gentle:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568743/#:~:text=However%2C%20this%20discussion%20focuses%20on,vary%20depending%20on%20the%20situation.

What set it apart from authoritarian parenting were the high levels of warmth.

No I'm not. I've read all of Diana Baumrind's papers on the parenting axis and authoritative parenting often involved punishments.

It would probably go along the lines if ' I know you're really disappointed that you wanted a Biscuit, I wish I could eat lots of biscuits too but it would make my tummy hurt'. For two of my children they would probably accept that and move on. As I said up thread, it wouldn't work on the other so I would just tell him no and if he carried on whining I might ask him to stop or just remove myself from the situation so he didn't have an audience, or I might just ignore.

No, you’re thinking of authoritarian parenting.

Permissive
Authoritative (aka gentle)
Authoritarian
Neglectful

Also authoritative parenting (gentle parenting) doesn’t say no childcare? Where have you got that from? And it doesn’t say don’t get annoyed, it says regulate yourself before responding. And it doesn’t say childminders over nursery at all. Where have you got this stuff from?! You have clearly been reading the wrong Facebook posts.

Well perhaps I am largely a gentle parent and didn’t realise it.

I definitely take some issue with some of the elements however.