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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To refuse to teach this lesson

113 replies

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 08:13

Secondary teacher of a practical subject. Maximum amount of students doing practical at one time has always been 16. Suddenly this term it has increased to 25! Boys school so big kids, year 10.
Head of department has decided this particular practical should be taught. I feel it is dangerous. Multiple hazards, too many kids, accident waiting to happen,
AIBU to say I'm not doing it. WHEN an accident happens I will be held accountable as class teacher.

OP posts:
ConiferBat · 19/10/2024 09:44

It's never unreasonable to refuse to do work which you feel is unsafe.

And It speaks volumes of your safety culture if leadership are ignoring the risk & telling you to crack on.

The school's duty of care to it's staff & pupils should be first priority. This change does not reflect this.

As an absolute minimum the risk assessment needs to be revised as it's a substantial change.

YANBU to seek further advice.

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:38

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:28

@ThatCalmHelper if only all HODs were as reasonable as you!

So for context. It's a food lesson. We have enough cookers for 2 kids to share one, but one has to be shared between 3. The practical requires 3 pans per kid so obviously not doable. Other teacher suggested using one pan twice so two pans per kid. That's 25 boiling pots of water, 25 frying pans with chicken and bacon. There's some areas of the room that are very narrow, the boys are big now, it's claustrophobic. The classroom is designed for 16 kids. It just seems like too much going on at once to be safe. 3 severe SEND kids (with LSA) at least 4 with adhd and behavioural issues.

OK, I see your concern - and I agree it's not workable.

You have two very strong arguments, 1 the room is not big enough for the number of students, sharing a cooker is like sharing a machine in a workshop, not really on.

2 The added complexity of the SEN students and the likelihood you have to keep an eye on them more than the others, hence increasing the likelihood of others having an accident.

I would advise you call the CLEAPPS helpline and discuss it with them, they are very helpful on such matters, if they confirm by email that they feel the situation is unsafe (and they do) that puts you in a strong position to go back to your HOD or to the Health & safety officer if you don't get anywhere.

I'm not a food tech expert, but it does sound like a nightmare scenario and a high likelihood of someone getting burned.

Your HOD is remiss for thinking its OK, it isn't.

oustedbymymate · 19/10/2024 09:38

I would ask for the risk assessment that's been completed by your HOD stating the ways of mitigating risk.

It's poor but 25 isn't that's big. But I guess subject such as woodwork metal
Work etc big machinery and big accidents it's definitely not good.

I used to teach PE which I realise isn't as bad but regularly would be told 'there's no cover' and to 'collapse classes' meaning 60+ kids to one teacher. Absolute shite. No teaching happening just crowd control. One of many reasons I don't teach anymore.

purplebeansprouts · 19/10/2024 09:37

Could your job share do it then? If they dgaf?

MrsHamlet · 19/10/2024 09:34

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:32

It would but CLEAPPS of DATA are more useful in this situation unless the union rep is a teacher in the subject area. Or indeed the Health & Safety Officer, our Health & Safety Officer is fully NEBOSH trained and could bring any activity to an end if he was concerned.

Going to the union infers dispute, it is better to address the issue on professional grounds of Heath & Safety management rather than it seeming like a dispute.

I am a union rep. If my member came to me with this, I would put them in touch with our health and safety rep.

Going to the union is about advice. If people want to see it as dispute, I would question why that's their first response.

PumpkinPie2016 · 19/10/2024 09:33

It's tricky to advise without specific details.
I teach science so usually have classes of 30.

Colleagues in other subjects openly say they would sooner stick pins in their own eyes than do a practical involving chemicals and Bunsen burners with 30 pupils. I am fine with it as I risk assess.

Ultimately, if you have spoken to the HoD and still don't feel comfortable, I would email the SLT link, cc HoD and explain your reasons. Put forward your suggestion of splitting the class and possibly making use of a technician if available. See what comes back. Emphasise that you are concerned for the safety of the pupils.

As a HoD myself, within reason, I wouldn't force a team member into a practical they were not comfortable with. Obviously, they couldn't refuse to do any practical work but if it was something specific, I would try to arrange a swap/another solution.

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:32

MrsHamlet · 19/10/2024 09:26

Not really, if the OP is worried about it and the HoD is brushing it off.
Unions have specifically trained people to give advice. Why would getting that support be anything other than a good thing?

It would but CLEAPPS of DATA are more useful in this situation unless the union rep is a teacher in the subject area. Or indeed the Health & Safety Officer, our Health & Safety Officer is fully NEBOSH trained and could bring any activity to an end if he was concerned.

Going to the union infers dispute, it is better to address the issue on professional grounds of Heath & Safety management rather than it seeming like a dispute.

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:29

Roastiesarethebestbit · 19/10/2024 09:23

If your have discussed it with your HOD and they have instructed you to go ahead then that’s what you need to do. If at any point in the lesson you feel that it has become too unsafe to continue, then you stop the lesson.

You talk about splitting the class. Was your intention for half the class to remain under
your supervision, but doing theory work or were you hoping for them to be elsewhere supervised by somebody else? If the former, then personally I would just have gone ahead and done that, I wouldn’t even have consulted my HOD!

My job share likes to run to HOD with anything I suggest.

OP posts:
cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:28

@ThatCalmHelper if only all HODs were as reasonable as you!

So for context. It's a food lesson. We have enough cookers for 2 kids to share one, but one has to be shared between 3. The practical requires 3 pans per kid so obviously not doable. Other teacher suggested using one pan twice so two pans per kid. That's 25 boiling pots of water, 25 frying pans with chicken and bacon. There's some areas of the room that are very narrow, the boys are big now, it's claustrophobic. The classroom is designed for 16 kids. It just seems like too much going on at once to be safe. 3 severe SEND kids (with LSA) at least 4 with adhd and behavioural issues.

OP posts:
stormmclean · 19/10/2024 09:26

I would not do something I felt was unsafe.

Doesn't matter if a load of other people on the internet thought they could do it safely.

CrushingOnRubies · 19/10/2024 09:26

Contact cleappss

Are you science or a dt subject

But the average class size for year 10 at my school is 32. And they work in 2s so 16 groups.

MrsHamlet · 19/10/2024 09:26

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:22

Bit OTT to run straight to the union, better to have a reasoned discussion with the HOD, I'm an HOD in DT, I have one teacher who won't do the brazing practical, it makes her nervous, this is fine with me, I do that lesson for her, its good for the pupils to get a different face for an hour and a half, and she does my woodwork lesson. (least that's how it sits this year)

Not really, if the OP is worried about it and the HoD is brushing it off.
Unions have specifically trained people to give advice. Why would getting that support be anything other than a good thing?

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:24

Diomi · 19/10/2024 09:20

In England and Wales there are very clear guidelines on the class sizes for DT workshops. I think it is around 20. All the schools I have worked in have taken this seriously and timetabled accordingly.

OP, If you don’t feel safe, then don’t do it. You could suggest splitting the class and doing it over 2 lessons. I know that means you need the other half in another room with someone to supervise them but schools manage to organise cover so it isn’t beyond the realms of possibility. Put your concerns in an email, not just verbally, and give some possible solutions rather than just refusing.

British Standard 4136:2021 is the document covering that, and a DT teachers good companion in terms of concerns on risk.

It should be on the bookshelf in every department office

WigglyVonWaggly · 19/10/2024 09:24

Make sure you have a paper trail about your concerns on this. Discuss in emails.

Roastiesarethebestbit · 19/10/2024 09:23

If your have discussed it with your HOD and they have instructed you to go ahead then that’s what you need to do. If at any point in the lesson you feel that it has become too unsafe to continue, then you stop the lesson.

You talk about splitting the class. Was your intention for half the class to remain under
your supervision, but doing theory work or were you hoping for them to be elsewhere supervised by somebody else? If the former, then personally I would just have gone ahead and done that, I wouldn’t even have consulted my HOD!

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:22

MrsHamlet · 19/10/2024 09:19

No you are not being unreasonable, and you should discuss it with your union.

Does your hod have experience of teaching this practical?

Bit OTT to run straight to the union, better to have a reasoned discussion with the HOD, I'm an HOD in DT, I have one teacher who won't do the brazing practical, it makes her nervous, this is fine with me, I do that lesson for her, its good for the pupils to get a different face for an hour and a half, and she does my woodwork lesson. (least that's how it sits this year)

Mischance · 19/10/2024 09:22

Do your own written risk assessment based on the group as a whole and the group split in two. Present this in written form and keep copies so that you have a record of your professional opinion about the situation. At the very least you have a defence should the worst happen and you have to face the music.

You could send the risk assessment to the governing board.

Chillisintheair · 19/10/2024 09:22

Don’t just go against the HOD. You need to speak to your regional union rep. For now can you do a non practical work linked to it.

Diomi · 19/10/2024 09:20

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 08:48

I'm a DT teacher, so well used to teaching in a hazardous environment with up to 30, sometimes more in the room.

Without knowing what activity you are doing its hard to know what to say, but there are generally ways to mitigate the hazard.

For example, pewter casting, involving heating pewter to its molten state and pouring off into a mould, when cooled the edges have to be filed - I have 4 brazing bays and crucibles, so I position myself with those 4 bays, supervising 4 pupils working with molten metal - the others, filing and hand polishing can be left alone as there is naff all hazard in that as long has they have goggles on - so in effect, out of 30, I only have to concentrate on 4 doing the most hazardous activity - the others are doing non hazardous work or getting their paperwork up to date...

Tell us your activity and see if we can come up with a plan.

In England and Wales there are very clear guidelines on the class sizes for DT workshops. I think it is around 20. All the schools I have worked in have taken this seriously and timetabled accordingly.

OP, If you don’t feel safe, then don’t do it. You could suggest splitting the class and doing it over 2 lessons. I know that means you need the other half in another room with someone to supervise them but schools manage to organise cover so it isn’t beyond the realms of possibility. Put your concerns in an email, not just verbally, and give some possible solutions rather than just refusing.

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:19

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:17

Thank you for the comments. With respect, I am not asking if this particular practical is safe or not, I am asking if I am being unreasonable by going against the instructions of my HOD. I would like to split the class but HOD says no. I have support staff but still think it's unsafe.

I understand that, and different people have their own tolerance for risk - but without knowing what the practical is it is difficult to help you to put a reasonable argument back to your HOD outlining your concerns.

If of a Saturday morning you have concerns, you are certainly not being unreasonable to put them to your HOD.

MrsHamlet · 19/10/2024 09:19

No you are not being unreasonable, and you should discuss it with your union.

Does your hod have experience of teaching this practical?

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:17

Thank you for the comments. With respect, I am not asking if this particular practical is safe or not, I am asking if I am being unreasonable by going against the instructions of my HOD. I would like to split the class but HOD says no. I have support staff but still think it's unsafe.

OP posts:
Roastiesarethebestbit · 19/10/2024 09:13

It’s hard to comment helpfully without knowing more detail. Most tech/science teachers will be well used to teaching classes of 25. But I agree it can be hard when classes increase in size and your usual room is more crowded and there is insufficient equipment. An increase of 9 students is significant. Classes have increased from 25 to 30 in my school this year and it has involved a rethink in how some practical lessons are organised, including planning how to use technicians and TAs optimally. But not doing the practicals would not be an option.

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:13

Newbutoldfather · 19/10/2024 08:16

It is a tough one.

As a teacher, ultimately you are in charge in the classroom and have to make your own decision. OTOH, without knowing the details, it is hard to know whether other teachers could do it safely with 25 pupils.

Are there any other ways of doing it? Maybe, do it over 2 lessons, with half the class doing the practical and the other half doing the background written work, and swap over the next class?

This is what I have suggest but HOD says no,

OP posts:
ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:09

Regulus · 19/10/2024 09:04

I find this a little patronising.

She says 'this particular practical' so she evidently has managed to adapt to 25 but the risks here are too great. There is no way we can begin to risk assess without actually being there.

Without knowing what the practical is, we can't know the risks involved, if they can be mitigated etc. - maybe you can't make it safe for 25 to do at once, but you can 15, so you could in two groups of 12 and 13, and then can you build a lesson plan to give a safe task to the other half, can you scare up someone to supervise the other half, in the room, or in another room at the same time.

If the OP gives a bit more info, likely a bit of help can be given putting together a plan, or if it really is not possible a reasoned argument to not do the activity - ie the risk of an accident from x happening is too great to mitigate because of y etc..

A lot of risk assessment in science and tech in schools is done by people who are not there, but work for the likes of CLEAPPS and DATA - because a lot of the facilities and risk factors are generic.