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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To refuse to teach this lesson

113 replies

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 08:13

Secondary teacher of a practical subject. Maximum amount of students doing practical at one time has always been 16. Suddenly this term it has increased to 25! Boys school so big kids, year 10.
Head of department has decided this particular practical should be taught. I feel it is dangerous. Multiple hazards, too many kids, accident waiting to happen,
AIBU to say I'm not doing it. WHEN an accident happens I will be held accountable as class teacher.

OP posts:
ilovesooty · 19/10/2024 16:49

Zebedee999 · 19/10/2024 16:36

Because that should be a last resort if you have tried to resolve the issue. Not a first resort for every obstacle you face at work.

Sometimes it's helpful to get union advice at an early stage
At this point the OP is wondering if she's within her rights to refuse to teach the lesson. There's a distinction between seeking advice and requesting direct union involvement.

Zebedee999 · 19/10/2024 16:36

ilovesooty · 19/10/2024 16:30

I agree with you about @ThatCalmHelper but why is it "bleating" to suggest getting some union advice?

Because that should be a last resort if you have tried to resolve the issue. Not a first resort for every obstacle you face at work.

TheSnootiestFox · 19/10/2024 16:30

When a colleague and I were in this position, we just turned Food Tech into virtually a non cook subject until KS4. It was absolutely crackers. Also, I assume that if your class sizes were reduced there'd be a knock on effect somewhere in the timetable? Your HOD needs to let you split the practical up if it's so vital that you do that specific dish!

ilovesooty · 19/10/2024 16:30

Zebedee999 · 19/10/2024 16:26

ThatCalmHelper was (as per her name!) simply trying to suggest that solutions can be found if more information is shared.
But it is easier to simply not offer help or practical ideas and bleat about getting the unions in etc as others have done.
@ThatCalmHelper is the type of person I'd want on my team every day of the week.

I agree with you about @ThatCalmHelper but why is it "bleating" to suggest getting some union advice?

ilovesooty · 19/10/2024 16:27

LongLiveTheLego · 19/10/2024 16:22

Maybe you should add to your experience by learning how to improve your terminology. Using the description "SEND kids" is not acceptable.

FFS. You could point that out without being snarky and turning it into a personal attack.

Zebedee999 · 19/10/2024 16:26

Regulus · 19/10/2024 09:04

I find this a little patronising.

She says 'this particular practical' so she evidently has managed to adapt to 25 but the risks here are too great. There is no way we can begin to risk assess without actually being there.

ThatCalmHelper was (as per her name!) simply trying to suggest that solutions can be found if more information is shared.
But it is easier to simply not offer help or practical ideas and bleat about getting the unions in etc as others have done.
@ThatCalmHelper is the type of person I'd want on my team every day of the week.

Mostlyoblivious · 19/10/2024 16:25

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:13

This is what I have suggest but HOD says no,

Then suggest that the HoD trials it the way they envision and plan from there.

As others have said, it’s your lesson and you have deemed it unsafe. It will be ultimately on you if anything happens, as you have already said. Would it be worth a chat with your union rep about this one for some guidance?

LongLiveTheLego · 19/10/2024 16:22

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 15:22

Thanks for your comments. I am a very experienced teacher. If there was another way around this eg recipe alterations, working in pairs etc I would have done it. I don't need help with planning my lesson. I need to know if it is unreasonable of me to say I'm not doing this lesson as I don't think it's safe.

Maybe you should add to your experience by learning how to improve your terminology. Using the description "SEND kids" is not acceptable.

ilovesooty · 19/10/2024 16:17

bergamotorange · 19/10/2024 16:08

Off topic. I don't mean this in a smart Alec way but correcting people like this is really bad manners.

If you need help with general etiquette on correcting people, the general rule is 'don't'.

Agreed.

Jojimoji · 19/10/2024 16:11

From one experienced teacher to another ( over 30 years here)
if you feel that the risks are too big then you are not being unreasonable to refuse to give this lesson in these circumstances.
HOD , SLT, HT and whoever else can say what they like- but as you've said, at the end of the day if anything at all goes wrong it's YOU in the firing line.

I know it's difficult, been there and bought the t- shirt myself, but I hope you can stand your ground.

JustAVeryWeirdWoman · 19/10/2024 16:10

YANBU. It does sound like an unsafe situation. Cooking can be a hazardous activity. I think you are correct to refuse. As others have said, make all objections in writing but stand your ground.

If something bad does happen, you will be 100% blamed by leadership. Nobody will care that you were pushed into it by them, they will say: "Well, can't they think by themselves? If your boss tells you to jump from a building would you do it?" And parents of any injured child would definitely direct their ire at you in first instance. So don't let them make you their lighting rod for poor management.

bergamotorange · 19/10/2024 16:08

beccahamlet · 19/10/2024 16:00

Off topic. I don't mean this in a smart Alec way, but it's 'number' of students - not amount of students. 'Students' is a countable noun. Amount is for uncountable nouns-water, cheese, happiness.

Off topic. I don't mean this in a smart Alec way but correcting people like this is really bad manners.

If you need help with general etiquette on correcting people, the general rule is 'don't'.

bergamotorange · 19/10/2024 16:06

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:28

@ThatCalmHelper if only all HODs were as reasonable as you!

So for context. It's a food lesson. We have enough cookers for 2 kids to share one, but one has to be shared between 3. The practical requires 3 pans per kid so obviously not doable. Other teacher suggested using one pan twice so two pans per kid. That's 25 boiling pots of water, 25 frying pans with chicken and bacon. There's some areas of the room that are very narrow, the boys are big now, it's claustrophobic. The classroom is designed for 16 kids. It just seems like too much going on at once to be safe. 3 severe SEND kids (with LSA) at least 4 with adhd and behavioural issues.

Have you put all of this in writing? The key issue is the room is designed for 16 and there is not space.

I would firstly seek advice from the union.

If not in the union, put it all in writing and say you do not feel able to teach the lesson as it is just too dangerous and copy in the person above your HOD?

Sladuf · 19/10/2024 16:01

No, YANBU. I think you should take the action you feel is appropriate and mitigates risks.

The eyebrow-raising point for me is up until now the maximum number doing practicals at one time was 16 but it’s now suddenly 25. What’s driven that change? I hope they’ve got records of why that change has been decided with appropriate revised risk assessments as others have noted.

I know schools can be buggers for pushing the limits when it comes to how they treat staff but I’d love to see how they could get out of a situation where if you were to split the class in 2, as you suggested and for the reasons you have, they gave you a hard time for doing so. A union should be all over a case like that.

beccahamlet · 19/10/2024 16:00

Off topic. I don't mean this in a smart Alec way, but it's 'number' of students - not amount of students. 'Students' is a countable noun. Amount is for uncountable nouns-water, cheese, happiness.

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 15:51

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 15:22

Thanks for your comments. I am a very experienced teacher. If there was another way around this eg recipe alterations, working in pairs etc I would have done it. I don't need help with planning my lesson. I need to know if it is unreasonable of me to say I'm not doing this lesson as I don't think it's safe.

Speaking as a DT HOD, who does have Food Tech within my remit, but I let them have autonomy, as I only do pot noodles badly!! I don't think you are being unreasonable at all to raise this and object.

Worse still, you say you have space to split and your HOD won't split the class - I'll stick my neck out and say she is negligent from a H&S standpoint as she is ignoring a solution to an obvious problem just because "se doesn't want to do that".

I've always been a bit of a firebrand so would be saying something like " well you teach the lesson then!!" but appreciate that probably won't go down well!

Direct answer, not unreasonable at all!

Invisimamma · 19/10/2024 15:43

Yanbu. I'm not a teacher op but I am a parent of a 13yr old boy and I would be really unhappy with this set-up. Knowing an experienced class teacher had flagged safety concerns and being told to forge ahead anyway with no mitigations, is shocking.

I'd much rather you split the lesson and do half and half and it took longer than put kids at risk of injury. It's also an incredibly stressful situation for you to be put in even if nothing goes wrong.

I'm in Scotland and it's not allowed here to have more than 20 pupils in a practical lesson. This is clearly set out contractually.

ilovesooty · 19/10/2024 15:24

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:13

This is what I have suggest but HOD says no,

Suggest your HOD teaches it and you swap with his/her class for that lesson.

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 15:22

LeedsUniPlanning · 19/10/2024 10:20

If you feel you do have to do it, and you cannot double
up students, could you adapt the recipe in anyway? What are the 3 pans for? Potatoes, chicken, dish, veg side...could you make the veg side an oven roasted one instead (roasted brocoli). Or new potatoes in the oven (not par-boiled or peeled, just oil).

Think about it as if it were you cooking it at home but half your hob was broken and your saucepan handles had fallen off. What could you shift to the grill/oven.

Would that help?

And like PP....document. put it in an email to your HOD. 100% have evidence...but if you have some solutions (even if not great) you then have something to get it in writing.

"Further to our discussion on Friday, I would still like to express my uncertainty over the safety of the whole of 10AbY completing the chicken roast practical at the same time. Whilst I appreciate the demands of the food room, as mentioned the issues of XYZ are hazards.
Having reviewed the practical I could do 123. This does mitigate "X" hazard. Obviously "Y and "Z" are still concerns. "

This covers you arse on this...which I think will be important...and may prod your HOD into rethinking.

Thanks for your comments. I am a very experienced teacher. If there was another way around this eg recipe alterations, working in pairs etc I would have done it. I don't need help with planning my lesson. I need to know if it is unreasonable of me to say I'm not doing this lesson as I don't think it's safe.

OP posts:
PTSDBarbiegirl · 19/10/2024 15:21

Ask for the risk assessment update and call your union asap. If you have a health & safety concern REPORT.

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 15:20

Tomorrowisyesterday · 19/10/2024 12:04

Why can't the OP do it in two lessons, like she suggested to the HOD? What reason was given for refusing this?

No particular reason, she just "doesn't want the class split"

OP posts:
cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 15:19

Tomorrowisyesterday · 19/10/2024 12:11

Ah I see. I was assuming she had the necessary space since she made the proposal to her HOD.

I do have the space, HOD just won't allow it

OP posts:
cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 15:18

Flossflower · 19/10/2024 12:45

Maybe they could work as pairs with double quantity in each pan?

I can't do that unfortunately as it's for an assessment

OP posts:
Flossflower · 19/10/2024 12:45

Maybe they could work as pairs with double quantity in each pan?

Flossflower · 19/10/2024 12:44

I was at school when the girls did cookery and the boys did woodwork. As it was only half the class there were only 15 cooking in a large room. However, I don’t ever remember a time when I had 3 pans on the go at the same time and really question this. Surely part of the lesson should be about economising on electricity and only having 1 pan of boiling water.