UK fertility rate drops by 18.8% in 12 years

As Hitler said to Mao

Yep. Typing from the Middle East it’s all close to home. I just like humans, I get a lot of joy from thinking about and engaging with kids, youth, the next and future generations. And hope. We need hope. Anyways interesting discussion. Sorry if my idea of targeting young men offended anyone. I was always taught that there’s no such thing as a bad idea. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Humans will go extinct eventually, @Imperfectionist

How do you know what most people have? I have loads of happily child free friends. The ones who do have kids are ambivalent on the whole. They wouldn't wish the kids away but...

There is nothing to suggest previous birth rates were the natural order though. Access to birth control, access to abortions, social stigma around remaining childless or having an only child all play into the fertility rate. Why is it okay when external factors inflate the rate but less okay when it reduces the rate?

Humans are far more likely to disappear due to overpopulation—overcrowding, resource scarcity and climate change will cause ecological collapse, famine, disease and war. A better future would necessarily be one with fewer people.

Humans are the worst, but don't worry, we're in no danger of dying out within your lifetime.

I think the constant messaging about not having children young, not having children before you can 'afford' them (that time will never come, it's always a financial shock) has had the intended effect- people are putting off having children or not having them at all.

Also, the imo weird way couples now act like housemates over money- DH and I always shared finances, it was always 'our' money, but you see threads all the time where a woman is using 'her' money for all child related expenses- it's bonkers imo.

Deciding not to have a baby because you can't find a decent man and/or can't afford it is really depressing. Most people have some sort of biological urge to procreate....this being dampened down because life is so shit isn't much of a step forward for society.

@fitzwilliamdarcy you’re absolutely right and I briefly alluded to essential importance of resolving these things in my final para “tactics”

Also need to manage Mumsnet expectations as some posters seem to expect ideas are fully thought out, costed up, data and evidence based and inclusive! Sorry to disappoint, I’m just an interested observer, joining in a discussion I care about. Leave the specifics to the experts (I wonder if anyone gets inspiration from us though)

@MrTwatchester yeah, these are just my ideas as a concerned citizen and I make no claim of being an expert with data to back up my ideas! As for why, I love humans and would hate to see us disappear. That is as depressing as watching Threads. In fact I don’t know if life would be worth living in that knowledge. I’m more of a work towards a better future, than a live for today person. But that’s just me!

I really don’t want to live in a society where having kids is seen as doing the decent thing for the economy. Shades of Nazi Germany.

I have no interest in expanding a ridiculous idea. Put it in the bin.

Amen.

Christ, if some bloke barely past bum fluff stage had graduated from Imperfectionist's operant conditioning programme and come after my 21-year-old uterus, he'd have had his balls handed back to him on a plate.

We need to bring some social nudge back - nothing as toxic as chronic shaming but a sort of Paddington Bear hard stare when people don't behave decently.

I absolutely loathe the "Paddington Bear hard stare" thing MN is so obsessed with, but suggesting that society starts heavily judging everyone who hasn't had the "decency" to "behave property" and have babies is... an idea.

I mean, you'll end up judging people who can't have kids and desperately want them, of course, but don't let that get in the way of a good time.

Absolutely, I think there's a lot of fear of what are children will be facing in their future.

My plan would be to influence young men to find a partner, commit and settle down as young as possible, with clear messaging that this is a route to happiness, as well as social wellbeing.
Indicator : more committed couples having their first child before they turn 25

I mean this is all well and good but most couples under 25 don't have secure housing, don't work in well-paid jobs, and don't have a ton of savings. The absence of these things, whilst not determinative of happiness, makes happiness more difficult. Add an incredibly expensive tiny human being or 3 into the mix, and bam - instant poverty and stress.

So what you're essentially saying is that you want to tell people that having children before 25 is the route to happiness, knowing it isn't true, and so gaslight UK citizens into increasing the fertility rate?

(I realise you've said improving housing is something you'd do alongside this but that doesn't solve the absence of well-paid job and savings issue.)

God it's really nice not having kids

Vive the decline of human population numbers

But I maintain, IMHO, that men are the most critical group to target and influence. Starting age 18 at minimum.

You maintain this, @Imperfectionist, even though the evidence says it's actually women who are driving the low birth rates?

Why do you want to increase the birth rate anyway?

It's also bollocks, too. I don't know where people get these ideas that in the mythical past the only time people had sex was within marriages and to procreate. Especially men!

@GrannyWeatherwaxsHatpin @MeowCatPleaseMeowBack

Back of the envelope policy planning 😉, I didn’t have time to flesh out a nudge plan for every demographic so just focused my plan on young men.

Please feel free to expand this idea to include and consider the needs and relevance of lesbians, people who know from age 20 that they don’t want children at all, and all other distinct groups!

But I maintain, IMHO, that men are the most critical group to target and influence. Starting age 18 at minimum.

This. There are plenty of decent guys who would like to find a partner to settle down with but who do not want to be fathers. As is entirely their prerogative, as long as they are upfront about it from the outset of any new relationship.

I'm tired and conflating two threads so my post probably made more sense to me in my head 😂

But that's a lot of assumption right there. I actually detest 'ickle' 🤢 babies. It was undoubtedly my least favourite stage of parenting! Closely followed by the ragey toddler years. Give me sullen teenagers any day! 🙏

Yeah and re the "men used to need to swap babies for sex" post above wtf. A lot of women like sex and don't want babies. I feel bad for the women who don't enjoy sex but try empathy eh

But this isn't true, according to the actual data. Globally, wherever educational standards for women increase, those women choose to have fewer children.

Sure, on an individual level you'll get some women who want to have children younger and can't find the right man, but this topic isn't about individuals, it's about populations.

At the population level, there aren't hordes of 20-something women desperately seeking sperm.

What when guys don't breed stare at them until they decide to do something totally against their own interests because you like ickle babies?

A lot of this makes sense.

In the past a percentage of young men were a bit wild but fundamentally decent. Marrying and having children tended to settle them down and 'grow up'. I can think of a few men in my family who benefited from this social 'nudge' and grew into good husbands, fathers and contributers to society.

Of course the landscape has changed dramatically out there.

We need to bring some social nudge back - nothing as toxic as chronic shaming but a sort of Paddington Bear hard stare when people don't behave decently.