UK fertility rate drops by 18.8% in 12 years

Absolutely agree with @TempestTost about the expectations of parenting now. I was born in the 80s and we entertained ourselves. Beyond feeding, clothing, housing and holding us accountable, parents didn’t do anywhere near what is now expected when most of us were growing up. My Mum never ‘played’ with us, she just told us to get to the table/go to bed/checked our homework and put plasters on grazed knees!

In my own life I notice that people are leaving it later to have children for a variety of reasons and therefore either struggling to conceive, having more medical issues which makes it less likely they will have another or leaving less time on the fertility clock to have another. Teenage pregnancy seems to have disappeared which is a good thing but the alternative has brought its own issues.

I agree cost is the big one. There needs to be a way that parents can know they can take time to care for young kids and still have a reasonable home situation. Childcare is one way but it won't always work, there just needs to be more flexibility in terms of an income sustaining family life.

But I also think the intense parenting culture now is totally off putting. And some of it is things like "your kid needs to be in six activities and take them to a high level" which it is more plausible to reject, but it also includes things like, you can't let your kids go out alone until they are 10, or you have to put up with seriously disordered sleep for five years, or you need to spend your free time playing with your children.

It's not sustainable for most and people are told they are failures as parents if they don't live up to it.

Who is suggesting it is 'all kodak moments' that hackenyed insult is really indicative of the mindset I'm referring to. Who says being a parent is my 'entire personality', that's like suggesting 'not' being a parent is your 'entire personality'- it's not is it? I know loads of parents with varying careers (many of which people would love to have) and not one of them is defined by their status as parent, that just happen to be one.

Having a child with a person you don't love on a 'whimsy' is a very bad idea and definitely won't work out, having a child with someone you love is key. I've done it, I know that it is not all an exercise in pragmatism far from it, my eldest is nearly an adult and a very successful one (by all measures) so I definitely know that you can forget pragmatism sometimes, it is not key to bringing up children at all. In fact I'd argue the opposite, it is stifling, children need to be cherished, nurtured and be provided the conditions to run with their imagination not micromanaged and have their lives mapped out to the nth degree.

I've four adult kids all with houses, good jobs and all in long term settled relationships. None of them want to have kids. They could afford kids they just don't want them.

Agree- it is making people into control freaks! It’s exhausting and no way to live.

I think that men are a big part of the problem tbh. Quite often they can't be relied on or kick the can down the road making all sorts of promises but wasting your time. I've also watched friends husbands say they would share parental leave as they were the lower earner, only to declare once their wives were pregnant that, no they actually aren't doing that and become less than useless. It makes those of us watching think twice.

I'm late 30s no kids. I had a relationship for most of my 30s where he knew he was wasting my time but instead pretended he just wanted stability 'we should buy a house first' etc etc, constantly moving the goalposts.

Now I live alone it's a financial struggle, I can't afford to live near my work so once you include my commute I'm out of the house for 12+ hours, I don't have time, energy or money to go on dates. Plus I don't trust men anymore, I've definitely become slightly avoidant.

You do need to think about if you become a single mother are you going to be able to feed and clothe a child, give them a half decent upbringing and chance in life. It's not fair to just have one because you want one and condemn them to a life of struggling.

I think modern life is just depressing to be honest. I think in so many ways we are going horribly wrong but I can't see it getting better anytime soon.

I can't afford my (reasonably modest) lifestyle with a second. I'd have to move house, which I don't want to do and can't afford.

Wanted two kids. Have one for health reasons, but I'm happy as a little family of 3. DD gets a lot of parental attention and support, I make sure she has lots of time with kids during the school holidays etc. A couple of years ago I was very sad that she likely won't have a sibling, but I've accepted it and she seems happy too.

Expense. For people who don't want to have children at all then no amount of money will persuade them to have one but there are many families who would have 2, 3 or even 4 if they could afford to do so but need to stick at a lower number. Women often need to go back to work full time asap.

Cost of housing, huge difference in cost between a 2 and a 3 bedroom house, and again between a 3 and a 4 bedroom. People having to work more hours to afford a much smaller property than their parents did and in some cases commute from further away. Spending 12 hours out of the house every day will naturally lead to singletons not being as available for dates and meeting people, and couples have less time at home together to make babies.

Many useless men who expect their wives to earn 50% of the income whilst doing 100% of the child rearing. Wives much less likely to want sex whilst having to look after a manchild much less have another actual child.

Families living further apart, people not having a "village", don't know their community or neighbours, no local support with children they have means less likely to have more.

Labour and birth is hell on earth, plenty of women traumatised by births due to lack of staff and awful postnatal care, that they don't want to repeat the experience. Birth injuries, birth trauma. In some severe cases women unable to have more children.

Mental health issues among parents and woeful mental health care making it unwise for them to have more children.

The rise of dating apps and instant gratification of getting several matches gives people of both sexes the illusion of choice. Don't like the way match number 1 dresses, never mind onto the next one and the next and the next. Eventually just leads to people being single for a long time.

Do men want more children? If men don't, and women don't, where is the problem?

Mums get a shitty deal and more and more women are voting with their feet, either by leaving motherhood later and only having one or at most two children or by opting out altogether.

This pattern is not unique to the UK though - allow women to control their own fertility and give them other options and as a general rule they want less children, not more.

You seem to be saying it'd be a good thing for birth rates to be higher? But why? Are you not aware that children born now are facing an extremely bleak future due to the incoming devastation of climate change? Are you not aware that the plague of humans, the overpopulation by us, the consumerism, the nappy mountains and colossal mountains of plastic, the poisoning of rivers and seas, are destroying the environment and pushing other species to extinction?

Exorbitant housing costs have fucked the country. People now delay having children until they are on the housing ladder, average is now early 30’s before you can save a deposit. By which time women’s fertility starts declining. Meanwhile at the other end their parents and grandparents are having to sell their homes to pay for care, which means that their children/won’t inherit money to help with their deposit. Increasing rates of dementia means this is becoming more likely, especially as it affects families. So in 20 years when my generation starts retiring not only will there be fewer carers, there will be fewer tax payers to fund pensions. So a continued increase in pension age will rise. Housing will likely end up in the control of large corporate landlords. They could have sorted this out years ago by building more council housing but they haven’t and never will.

The dymamics of young adulthood and relationships are changing.

50% of women are now hitting 30 without kids and so they've got a limited window left. It's really hard as you have to get all your ducks in a row in such a short time frame - partner, career, secure housing all within about 15 years.

Many of the youngsters where I work still aren't settled down into their mid 30s and many are actually on the housing ladder so it's not just about affordability and money.

There's never been more young people out of work. So many struggling with depression and anxiety, SEN etc. a lot more money must go towards supporting the young these days than in the past.

There is nothing wrong with being rational and looking at things pragmatically.

The idea of having children shouldn't be one of whimsy and 'it will all work out'. People are told to use more strict considerations before buying a cat than they are when they announce they wants child.

If I bought a horse I could barely afford because I had dreams of riding bare back across a mountain range, but then started to complain when the reality was shovelling shit out of stables in the rain and sleet every day of the year while also trying to fit in with the stable yard clique was hard and it was costing too much to get the best possible schooling and care for my horse, people would righly tell me I should have thought about all that before I bought the animal.

Raising kids isn't all Kodak moments and while some people may be really into it and make it their entire personality, some people just aren't interested in it. It has nothing to do with computers. Ive been around children and I've seen what they require. I do not wish to provide that, and I value other things.

It’s nothing to do with computers or smart phones. I’ve just always known I didn’t want kids since I was one myself. It’s just an instinctive, deep, visceral feeling, same as the people who want kids, I assume. I’ve made plenty of impulsive decisions in my life without analysing the cost and benefits or looking up info on the internet. I don’t sit down and do a pros and cons list for everything I do. But if I did one about having kids, the cons would far outweigh the pros for me. It would make my life much worse.

I agree. I have 3 (a singleton and twins)... we had to buy a particular type of (expensive) car to fit the car seats and buggy in... and we are limited when we book holiday accommodation.

Basically rent a holiday home or camp... hotels are normally v expensive as we would need 2 adjoining rooms.

All clubs and activities are expensive as the twins normally want to do the same things together... so cost of activity x2 plus uniform x2 .

@HazelPlayer That’s not true, many industries are primarily in London or another major city. Certainly once you get to a high enough level there just aren’t the same opportunities outside London or similar. It isn’t just finance, it’s true of advertising/marketing, politics and policymaking, architecture, design, journalism, and most major commercial brands whose corporate HQs are in London.

I ended up moving abroad for opportunities. I tried recruiters in my hometown (a biggish city, about 500,000) and close by when I came back from another stint abroad a few years ago and was told that senior enough positions just don’t exist outside London. My DC fortunately has citizenship of three countries, there are so few opportunities in the UK.

If you agree that the human population cannot increase infinitely, but think it needs to increase in the short term to cover the pensions of the existing aging population, you're just kicking the can down the road for future generations to deal with.

OonaStubbs · Today 07:47
The vast majority of taxes are paid by the highest earners. If we kept the highest earners and reduced the number of people who are a net drain on the public purse throughout their lives, we would all be a lot better off.

You've over simplified. If you do low-status, essential work on wages to low to live on, you don't pay much tax, and you may even need government money to survive, but your work has value to society and to the economy.

Smart phones didn’t tell me I don’t want children. I’ve never wanted them, and I’m not taking any risk of having them on the off chance I’ll find them “joyful”.

Why on earth do you care if other people don’t want them anyway? Fat chance of humans dying out, so what’s the problem?

America?

They don't have ANY maternity cover
Their schools are more dangerous
They have worse employee rights

....