To think most men are selfish?

That's a fair enough response, ofc - and perhaps I should have stressed a nature/nurture/society expectations slant to my thoughts and observations, but I can't agree to some things here.

"Women are taught from early on that they have to be in lamest terms obedient, always giving and forgiving, selfless, and a bunch of attributes that are not placed on men."

Taught? Who by? When? Where? Imho, we haven't lived in the 50s for decades and decades...

"the inequalities in expectations of mothers compared to fathers." Again, I find that a rather tired and cliched assertion, if I'm honest.

"men being “babysitters” to their children "...an exclusive to Mumsnet view in my experience.

Perhaps there are plenty of rubbish fellas like that but one would expect the women who are with them to be equally as rubbish

Dunno...there was a woman who's child had died in very sad circumstances recently who said that sadly, mental health wasn't talked about enough. We talk about absolutely nothing else!

On the whole I think that most people are inherently selfish when it comes to looking after their own interests.

Perhaps there is a difference though, as many women will look on their children, elderly relatives, and keeping house & home together as their interests, and many men don't appear to even have those things on their radar. They think it all gets done by the housework fairy.

@henrts I would say they are often inconsiderate rather than selfish....... they just don't "get" the need to consider the implications of their actions on those around them.

Well it seems like my entire friendship group are very lucky too! Maybe there is something in the water around here!

Or it may be due to societal expectations and differing pressures for both genders?

Women are taught from early on that they have to be in lamest terms obedient, always giving and forgiving, selfless, and a bunch of attributes that are not placed on men.

Motherhood only adds to it and the inequalities in expectations of mothers compared to fathers is pushing more women to forego motherhood all together so they can prioritise themselves the same ways that men do and not go through what they notice too many mothers do.

Saying that though there are more men from what I’ve seen (at least on SM) pushing back against men being “babysitters” to their children and trying to teach other males to be more considerate and take a more equal part in parenthood.

Don't totally agree with all of this, but wanted to acknowledge an intelligent, sensible, nuanced contribution.

I had a pop at someone the other day on here for making garbage comments; I'm older now, but this posts reminds me of the level of debate and discussion that Mumsnet used to provide.

Not in my family or friendships. Our (grown up) sons are not selfish at, my DH is not either. I think the family you get or the company you keep, determines that.

No, I find most men go be accommodating and willing to give up their time etc whereas I see a lot of women who put themselves first and are incredibly selfish.

Not sure about this.

However, if we're making this discussion gendered, maybe quite a significant proportion of women could be seen as over-selfless, hyper-selfless.

Self-indulgently so, in many cases that I've observed.

Reasons behind that, ofc - maybe lacking in confidence to do/act/be who/what they really want to, maybe?

Fellas tend to just operate in a different realm where they're kinder to themselves, put less pressure on themselves, perhaps.

More mellow - but aware in most cases, I'd hazard.

@strivingtosucceed

Men can be very selfish in other ways too though, the sheer amount of single mothers who haven't seen their counterpart in months or years speaks to that. They simply dont' become shamed enough for it.

Excellent point. The sheer imbalance in the numbers of single mothers vs. single fathers does demonstrate a degree of selfishness on the part of the men involved.

What percentage of men join the armed forces and of those way percentage do so for selfless reasons (rather than it was a job and something that interested them?)

Welp!

There we have it. The data shows that they ARE more selfish!

I agree it’s weird and depressing. I don’t know anyone who would have done that. My only female friend who literally always does the cooking is quite upfront that it’s because of her own disordered eating (for which she’s in specialist therapy) — it feels more manageable for her to know exactly what’s in the food and how it’s cooked. But her DH and two teenage sons are perfectly competent cooks. DH does all the cooking here.

I am always constantly amazed at just how much so many men’s entire lives seem to revolve around getting access to sex!

Blows my mind!

I think there are men who want wives and children and men who want to be husbands and fathers.

The former are the ones who tend to be selfish.

I do find when I hear about most heterosexual relationships I am baffled as to what women find appealing about their male partners.

Well, all I have to say, I'm very happy and fortunate to never have anything to do with any of them anymore, if I don't want to.

I don't disagree with you rarebitten, just wouldn't have expected every last woman in the group being in the same boat that night.

For many society and upbringing make them like this.

Again, that’s a choice. Don’t marry someone who weaponises incompetence, or don’t pander to them if you did. Anyone who can read can cook, and there’s nothing like hungry children going apeshit to concentrate the mind.

Yep! You’ve made a point (a lot more eloquently) that I was trying to in a post yesterday

I’ve noticed that even the ‘good’ guys I know view their work around the house and with their children as providing generous assistance for their wives/partners, not just doing what they should be doing.

It creeps up in their language “I helped my wife and looked after the kids..” “I help out around the house…”

I see male colleagues on social media (unfortunately I have to use LinkedIn for work) boasting about the fact they left work early one day to look after their child. One wrote a long post about having to look after his 2 year old on his own while his wife travelled abroad. Apparently it was the hardest 48 hours of his life. And of course there was the patronising follow up guff at the end “To all the mums out there, you do such a great job..” But luckily for you Dave it’s just a temporary job for 2 days eh?

How many women describe looking after their own children as helping their husband? Or write self congratulatory posts explaining that they left the office early to tend to a sick child? None because this the default expectation for women. A man doing the same is lauded because he is giving up his precious time to help us.

Was at an after-school party last week and was really surprised that every last mum there said they'd had to leave something out at home for the husband to feed the other kids tea, or arrange to come back with take out, etc. All said the men couldn't or wouldn't cook.

I include myself in that but just thought I was an idiot and no-one else would be standing for it. Meal planning when we're not even there (and making sure it's something the men can handle getting on a plate without incident) is just an extra chore for women and clearly something plenty of men couldn't be bothered with.

There's a singer on Instagram (Faridah I think) who does a great song about making a list for hapless men ("how was he supposed to know the kids eat every night").

Yes, this has been my experience.

I might start a thread asking are most women judgemental and shallow, just to even the scales up a bit

I think every individual is shaped by their upbringing. So sadly some people’s instincts are flawed, questionable from an early age, even more so if they make a bad life choice partner later on.

I don’t think all men are selfish, I don’t think all women are judgemental and shallow. Some are, some aren’t. All depends on the influences they experience through life.

Unfortunately I am of this mindset too and I have experienced endless selfish men from my family, in-laws and the workplace. I feel that DH is considerate and not like the other men I’ve encountered. Otherwise I wouldn’t stay married to him.