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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Am I out of practice or was this a weird discussion with manager?

162 replies

pensandpapwrs · 11/10/2024 20:05

I’ve been back at work just under six months after Mat leave, my daughter is 18 months. I was told my work wasn’t perfect when I came back as I was missing small things (work in a professional role) but I was steadily improving as the months had gone on. I was asked how I felt about things etc. I was told of the direction of the company and that manager was looking forward to us all embarking on this next phase of growth together.

So that was all ok. So I thought. I was then told it would be a good idea to re address the balance of my home and work life as it’s probably too much tipped into the home life at the moment. I have no idea what that meant, I leave to do nursery pick up but I’ve been told (by this manager) that that is fine. I also am on target. I just felt it was a weird thing to say, like how is the balance wrong and how can I NOT collect my child or be there for the home stuff? I was also told I need to build on being more robust so they can send more work to me steadily. I had no idea I wasn’t robust?!

I came out of the meeting feeling totally mixed messages. Am I reading into this too much?

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Goodtogossip · 29/10/2024 12:43

Email your Manager asking for a copy of the meeting notes. If there weren't any taken ask if they can summarise what was said as you found a few things a bit unclear. Go through what they send you & email any queries you have so it's in writing so there's something to go back to if you're still not clear on certain things that was said.

BadSkiingMum · 18/10/2024 18:32

@pensandpapwrs I have just caught up with the thread and am still feeling a bit uneasy for you.

In addition to the points already covered:

Hours - you are clearly working the hours, but are you working the right hours? When does your manager arrive and leave? Could you swap your routine to take your toddler to nursery and your DH do the collection?
I managed my work for years by aligning my hours with those of my head of department. She would arrive later and leave later, so I did the same. Being in early would have been pointless for me, as it was about 4.30pm that she would typically want to discuss something I had sent her or a have a key conversation that moved a project forward.

Image - I think that you might need to show or do something to project that you are career focused. Host a seminar. Make a connection with a new client. Write an article. Become very active on LinkedIn. Or could the change simply be visual - could a more corporate image or a new haircut be the change you need?

It goes against my grain to write that last point as I know that you shouldn't need to do this and a man wouldn't ever need to do this, but those changes are a far easier road than the path that eventually becomes a grievance and ends with a payoff and an NDA.

max29 · 14/10/2024 21:10

Don't let this go, you are being bullied. Ask for the written summary and identify the areas that don't reflect the discussion if there are any ... I am sure there will be. Helpful if they do reflect the comments they made so don't worry if they do. Point out areas you don't agree with either what was said or provide evidence to refute what they say. If they disagree provide your summary /changes signed and ask in writing they be kept together with their version and explain why .. your recollection different to the conversation that was had. Then book another meeting and take a trusted colleague to take notes and ask for clarification on the points that are unclear. Leave the second meeting knowing if there is an issue with your performance or not. Be sure that if there is it is set out clearly. If there is ask for evidence, if justified ask what he/she believes is required to improve your performance and agree a plan you feel comfortable with to address any shortfalls with agreed measures. Cut this dead now, play the game but let them know you understand what is happening and that you are not rolling over. Have faith in yourself and confidence .. this is tactical bullying of a new mum / office gossip .. passive bullying techniques . Make sure everything documented / keep your own notes from hereon. Hopefully it will die a death, if it doesn't those notes will be invaluable. Ensure you maintain notes on your performance and ask that any issues are brought to your personal attention at the time they take place by your manager so they can discussed and resolved immediately. Don't let them intimidate you.. you have got this. Productivity does not mean extra hours in the office so be home for your little one. You can have a career and achieve success with a family.. don't doubt yourself x

Sleepytiredyawn · 14/10/2024 14:35

Are your work hours flexible or are you just able to be flexible if needed?

I’m wondering if the logging in early and completing things later on in the evening makes them think you’re struggling to get things done.

Your home life is important, I would work on a better balance of doing your expected hours and nothing out of these hours. You need to switch off from work and prioritise home life and vice versa.

If you’re able to not nip out to collect your child, either arrange something else or they stay there longer, I would do this. Don’t give them any excuse to use your home life against you.

Retiredfromearlyyears · 14/10/2024 09:14

Ask for another meeting. Write down points that you need clarification on. Be clear on what your understanding of your role within the company currently is. Ask them to be equally clear on what their requirements and expectations of you are. Tell them you would like the meeting to be recorded in writing so that you both have a copy of role,expectations etc. Ask if you can have "touch base" meetings on a regular basis in order to ensure that you are both satisfied the job spec. Is being met!

Judgedontbudge · 14/10/2024 09:14

wordler · 11/10/2024 21:16

I'm assuming that everything in your post came up during the meeting - so what I would do is send a follow up meeting to your manager (and HR?) showing what you understood was said, and asking for more clarification on the things that are unclear. I'm putting the bits in Italics to show you what I'd referencing from your post - obvs don't include those bits in the email.

Start the email saying something like - "Following up on the meeting yesterday, thank you for the feedback, I just wanted to summarise what we talked about and ask for clarification on a few points.

I was told my work wasn’t perfect when I came back as I was missing small things (work in a professional role) but I was steadily improving as the months had gone on.

I appreciate that you have acknowledged the improvement in performance I have made since returning from maternity leave. I feel that I've worked hard to bring all work up to a professional standard and xxx xxx (insert something positive specific to your job performance here)

I was told of the direction of the company and that manager was looking forward to us all embarking on this next phase of growth together.

This was a really important part of the meeting. Can you remember specific words and phrases used? You need to add a line in summarising this to show your manager that you are on board with the 'next phase of growth' and are going to be a team player. So something like: I understand the direction the company is going and the need to do xxx and xxx together as a team to build xxx xxx xxx (whatever is specific to the message they were pushing at that point) Don't underestimate this part of the meeting - they were telling you their goals and expectations before the hit you with the whammy that they are not sure you are up to this 'next phase of growth' - make sure they know you understand there is a team goal and you are ready to be part of it.

I was then told it would be a good idea to re address the balance of my home and work life as it’s probably too much tipped into the home life at the moment. I have no idea what that meant, I leave to do nursery pick up but I’ve been told (by this manager) that that is fine.

Ask for clarification on this while also making sure they know that you are working before and after you come into the office, and double check again how the nursery run every day is being perceived.

I was concerned to hear that there is a feeling that my commitment to the position is being affected by my work home life balance. I would appreciate more clarification on this so that I can address any issues or concerns as soon as possible. I was told leaving to pick up my child from nursery was acceptable, and I have made sure to work from home before and after office hours to compensate for an early departure.

I was also told I need to build on being more robust so they can send more work to me steadily. I had no idea I wasn’t robust?!

I'd also like clarification on being told I need to be more robust. Could you be more specific on how that relates to my performance targets and what you would like to see from me.

My advice would be to watch how you are interacting with colleagues because the work life balance and robust comments sound to me like feedback that has been fed to your manager from your day to day interactions over the last six months. Do you come in exhausted - talk about DD a lot - make a big exit with how you must rush to get to nursery? That sometimes winds up colleagues especially those without kids who resent parents leaving at set times every day. I don't think it's wrong for you to have this accommodation but be careful how it appears so people aren't grumbling about you to the manager.

And re the robust - again sounds like colleagues complaining that they can't risk asking for things or help in case you get overwhelmed. Do you seem frazzled a lot at work?

I’ve read this post with interest.
The time and effort that this person @wordler has taken to write this advice for you is very kind and selfless. Seems like some great advice and insight from their comments for you too.
Sounds like they’re singling you out a bit for whatever reason. Some workplaces just don’t like workers who have any priority whatsoever other than their job, which is obviously outdated and unethical but still happens. I’d say keep your head down, do your best, keep your private life private - remember “loose lips sink ships” and do your best to nod and say yes. Hopefully, it will blow over.

TheCanaryInThePurpleSkirt · 14/10/2024 05:27

pensandpapwrs · 11/10/2024 21:51

I literally never talk about DD unless asked. I never disrupt a meeting for a pick up at nursery, I would just pay the fine for late collection, which I have done on the two occasions it happened.

I have never inconvenienced anyone through childcare stuff or home life. At all.

The only thing I can think is perhaps I seem rushed a lot of the time. And I do often double check things with people which could suggest I am not 100% confident and therefore not robust?

the person saying they are looking to get rid of me… I don’t think so as part of the meeting was how excited my manager was to build the team even further with me and they knew I was highly capable and still working my way up on the return from mat leave… so I don’t think that sounds like they are teeing up anything? Also no notes were made at the time of the meeting. Perhaps they were afterwards but it was a general review meeting everyone has, not just scheduled for me.

And this is why we’re having fewer children.

I think they’re not happy with the “new” you; the working mother version. It sounds dreadful. Shame on them. I’d ask for clarification of the meeting, in writing. What does your partner think? If you are genuinely doing all you say above, you sound like a committed member of the team. Are you supposed to pretend you don’t have a life beyond your work? I’d look for new employment.

pensandpapwrs · 13/10/2024 19:51

ConstanceM · 13/10/2024 19:31

You're not a machine. You are allowed a home life. Sounds like bullying a woman after ML and piling pressure on and that you should be thankful for the job. Get to Fxuk. Union up.

@ConstanceM this is what it feels like

OP posts:
ConstanceM · 13/10/2024 19:31

You're not a machine. You are allowed a home life. Sounds like bullying a woman after ML and piling pressure on and that you should be thankful for the job. Get to Fxuk. Union up.

ThinWomansBrain · 12/10/2024 20:26

pensandpapwrs · 11/10/2024 21:54

I am worried now though if posters think they’re trying to get rid of me!

I didn't mean to alarm you with my comment - but if your working more hours than you're contracted for and LM is suggesting it's not enough, how dare you have a life outside work, it would be good to keep track of the comments.
Either for a formal complaint, tribunal if it gets really shitty and you decide to call constructive dismissal, or they do 'have a reorganisation' and organise you out.
Hopefully an informal well judged word will sort it, or LM will grow a brain cell - put you shouldn't have to put up with constant demeaning put downs - however much you know LM is being unreasonable, it will wear you down.

AustinFlowers · 12/10/2024 19:42

Great advice from @wordler.

You play the game that's what you do. You channel your inner warrior. You listen to what is going on around you and pay very close attention to what is being said. You start keeping notes. You don't share concerns or insecurities.

It's rubbish and it shouldn't be like this but you have to stay strong because if there is a plan to get rid of you, your manager is banking on you crumbling. 'Not robust enough' will then be added to the list of failings.

It's highly likely you are doing nothing wrong. You need to decide if this is the type of person you want to work for. Funnily enough, you too have a choice.

wordler · 12/10/2024 18:51

pensandpapwrs · 12/10/2024 18:18

I just don’t know what to do about this. I have nothing to lose so won’t go without a huge fight that’s for sure. But sadly I have no experience of employment law or how to play that. I am so fucking fed up of entitled men spouting shit to women. I’m doing the job. That’s all I need to do. I’m really angry and upset about it.

At this point you don’t know that you have a huge fight on your hands - you do know that your manager wants to see something they are not seeing right now.

But at this point you don’t know what that is - it could just be a small pivot that will change perceptions. It could be an increase in work targets.

I strongly recommend a clarifying email not a meeting first because it sound like you have a manager who is struggling to be clear and specific in person. Asking them to write it out will help them focus.

But it’s in your best interests at this point to show that you welcome this feedback, that you’re a team player, that you understand the vision and direction the team is going. Do the corporate ass-kissing.

People are saying that they wouldn’t have this conversation with a man but one of the things that men are never hesitant to do is big themselves up and make sure they take credit for all their wins - they send emails pointing out their strengths and met goals, before any meeting like this takes place.

Meet this kind of feedback with a ‘Yes…And’ approach not a ‘No… But’

Yes, I hear your feedback I can see your point… And I’d like to take this opportunity to show how improvement has been made.

And any conversation going forward from
colleagues or management that asks you how you are finding things with home work balance you say “I’m doing really well thanks - I have lots of support and everything I need is in place etc etc”

pensandpapwrs · 12/10/2024 18:18

I just don’t know what to do about this. I have nothing to lose so won’t go without a huge fight that’s for sure. But sadly I have no experience of employment law or how to play that. I am so fucking fed up of entitled men spouting shit to women. I’m doing the job. That’s all I need to do. I’m really angry and upset about it.

OP posts:
babyproblems · 12/10/2024 18:15

I’d be asking for another meeting, in writing, to clarify what they meant about work life balance not being good enough and making them spell their discrimination out in writing so I could take them to tribunal if needed at a later date!!! You sound like you have a shit manager.

pjparty · 12/10/2024 18:13

pensandpapwrs · 12/10/2024 17:53

I’m so upset about this tonight, not sure why it’s getting to me so much

OP as someone trying to balance motherhood after mat leave and a demanding job will a confusing manager, I totally feel you and you aren't alone. I was already dreading Monday on Friday night...

whynotshouldi · 12/10/2024 17:58

pensandpapwrs · 12/10/2024 17:13

I just don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I work late. I’m responsive. I’m 5k off my (huge) target. I work on my days off. I never miss a meeting because of childcare issues. I honestly don’t get it.

For the record, I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong. I think he’s a dick and you’re better off out of there.

I think if your mat leave coincided with this new manager’s culture setting and settling into the role, then he may have a vision/plan for the team that does not include you, either because he wants to drive people hard to achieve even greater results (to make him look good) and your pace (work/life balance) does not fit, or he has his eye on someone else externally or from another department who he thinks would fit better. He can’t technically do or say anything at this point but he can point out some low hanging fruit which are things any misogynist could fit to any woman, especially in making general statements about your home life taking all up your time, not being “robust” and “missing things” like spelling a name on an email wrong.

when accounting for this he will back-label it as a pre PM conversation and he will have started the clock ticking on how long he’s given you to improve the moment you left the office. Any small mistake you make from now will be noted and added to the list to give shape to his vague and currently unjustifiable feedback.

your best bet right now is to ask him in writing if there are any other examples he can articulate apart from spelling someone’s name wrong, because you are keen to work on the feedback. Do it in one brief email (so you can’t be accused of “double checking.”) I would completely stop speaking about your child or home life and I would move all conversations with everyone back on to work if they ever stray. If your company is very corporate and has a board of directors or senior advisors (I don’t know what your company is) I would see if there is a senior woman who is out of the day to day who you reach out to personally and ask for a mentoring coffee.

pensandpapwrs · 12/10/2024 17:53

I’m so upset about this tonight, not sure why it’s getting to me so much

OP posts:
pensandpapwrs · 12/10/2024 17:46

Bearbookagainandagain · 12/10/2024 17:40

I think what they are not telling you, is that your target was set low as a new joiner (which is normal and very common).
You might have meet the target, but they would have looked at raising it in the second half of the year and they feel they can't.

The comment about work-home balance is a bit shit. It's not their business how you manage your time as long as your work is done.

The only time I have had to intervene as a manager is when one of my direct report was consistently sending reports past midnight. There was a concern about their wellbeing, they just weren't efficient enough and it was taking them too much time to complete the work.

Edited

@Bearbookagainandagain but that’s the thing I have been told to take time to keep work and not push it off my desk too… so I feel like I can’t win! The last bit of advice I put forward the response was ‘totally agree, that was my analysis and view too.’ So… if they are in total agreement with my strategies etc then how am I going wrong? I just feel I can’t win at all.

OP posts:
Bearbookagainandagain · 12/10/2024 17:40

I think what they are not telling you, is that your target was set low as a new joiner (which is normal and very common).
You might have meet the target, but they would have looked at raising it in the second half of the year and they feel they can't.

The comment about work-home balance is a bit shit. It's not their business how you manage your time as long as your work is done.

The only time I have had to intervene as a manager is when one of my direct report was consistently sending reports past midnight. There was a concern about their wellbeing, they just weren't efficient enough and it was taking them too much time to complete the work.

pensandpapwrs · 12/10/2024 17:13

I just don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I work late. I’m responsive. I’m 5k off my (huge) target. I work on my days off. I never miss a meeting because of childcare issues. I honestly don’t get it.

OP posts:
whynotshouldi · 12/10/2024 15:58

pensandpapwrs · 12/10/2024 11:39

People mentioning performance management… I was specifically told the meeting wasn’t about that and that there weren’t concerns about performance. I have only been worried due to the remarks about work life balance and being robust and now next year should be my year etc. all seemed very strange comments to make.

they will not tell you it’s about performance management. It sounds like they do not want you to work there anymore. If they officially told you it was PM then they would have to give you more detail rather than make vague statements which are intended to confuse you, expect you to appeal earlier, get your ducks in a row around discrimination. They are hoping to extend out time by giving you vague negative feedback and hoping you accept it without asking questions while formally documenting it as a pre-performance management conversation. These are the unwritten rules of corporate life

melonwalruswrestling · 12/10/2024 12:33

Codlingmoths · 12/10/2024 11:31

This is silly. Documenting everything shows firstly and most obviously she won’t be a push over if they turn it into performance management, which is a very useful message to send. If they haven’t a leg to stand on facts wise they need to pull their heads in. She can’t just ‘improve’ without having established how, nor is it right for her to feel like the only employee who has to work extra hours and exceed not meet targets because her manager has made some vague negative comments which are completely unsubstantiated but clearly flag they have an issue with her. A sex discrimination claim would be pretty hard to get up and running here, and not at all what I would think of first.

Obviously you don't have to answer or say anything that would identify you, but I'm curious what type of company you work for or the type of job you do if your experience is that demonstrating that 'you won't be a pushover' by emailing and starting to document things would be a good thing to do at this stage.

Animatic · 12/10/2024 12:22

First, it starts with "we are embarking on a new exciting journey of growth and all need to buckle-up".

Then, they will tell you"rember we discussed the need to buckle up, you need to do better"

Then, "you remember we discussed you need to do better? Well,you didn't "

And so on..

Are you in consulting by any chance?

Notreat · 12/10/2024 12:01

I think you need to ask them for examples. It sounds a very general comment.
Are there any other parents in your team?

MissTrip82 · 12/10/2024 11:58

Geranen · 12/10/2024 06:34

@unlikelychump

Many of the things you say suggest that you have been hit really hard by your experience of having a baby/maternity.ive never heard of anyone feeling out of practice or still getting up to speed 6 months after returning to a job (or indeed starting one)

Really? You've never heard of that? People do indeed have pregnancies, births, recoveries and children that vary in their demands and difficulties. Perhaps you only hang out with superwomen. I really do not think this is that strange.

It’s very strange to me too. I don’t think I hang out with superwomen but I don’t do a job that allows for six months of reduced performance. Surely few people
do?

Would you really find it ok if someone whose career involved teaching your children, resuscitating people, investigating crimes or constructing bridges was performing under par for six months? That really surprises me.

I wonder if you’re minimising a bit here OP as you sound a little contemptuous of being dedicated to career or being ‘corporate’? As though you don’t find those things meaningful? That’s up to you of course but i wonder if that attitude is coming across at work, as if you’re not interested or caring about your work? I think six months is a long time to get back up to speed.

Having said that I’m surprised anyone would say you need to adjust your work/life balance - that to me seems a very foolish thing to say. Your manager would be better to focus on performance.

I’d ask to meet again just to clarify some
specific goals.