To think cry it out is kinder than gentler methods

I couldn’t do cry it out. But YANBU for getting to your wits end and getting to the point where you’re considering it. That said, sleep training doesn’t have to mean cry it out.

We had an awful time with DS (now 2) which started around the same age as your DD, where he’d scream and scream at bedtime and when he woke in the night because he just wanted to be with us in our room/our bed and we’d try and resist but we’d end up giving in so we could get some sleep, but that meant neither DH or I could sleep anyway with his kicking and wriggling and literally sitting on or fully lying on top me and head butting me occasionally. And in turn it reinforced to DS that if he kicked off enough he got what he wanted. It was a vicious circle.

Have you called your HV? I called ours in tears at my wits end and she gave some fantastic advice and a plan to follow. I remember saying to her I won’t do cry it out, and she said I didn’t have to. And she called every couple of weeks to see how it was going.

I will say it got worse before it got better as DS couldn’t understand why we weren’t giving in! But then it got to the point where our bedtime routine was done so quickly and he’d go straight to sleep, and if he woke in the night he’d either put himself back to sleep or we’d only need to go in for a few minutes. Some of the things which worked for us were:

• bedtime routine was exactly the same no matter which one of us did it. To the letter.
• once he was laid down to sleep and whole routine, story, milk etc was done, I would sit and hold his hand for a few minutes (but not to sleep) and then leave. If he started to cry, I’d wait a minute (difference between crying and whinging) and then go back in and comfort him - but he wasn’t to get out of bed. The leave again. If he didn’t stop crying I’d sit there and hold his hand but not engage with him. I wanted him to know that mummy would always come if he cried but that didn’t mean he was getting his own way.
• And repeat this process. It would take hours sometimes and be long past even my bedtime! we did this when he woke in the night as well. I spent many a night falling asleep on his bedroom floor and holding his hand through cot bars.
• eventually he got better at recognising once his bed routine ended it was time to lie down and sleep. So I could just get up and leave the room after and he’d go off to sleep himself.

Honestly it took about 6-8 weeks for it to work. And it was brutal and I felt like caving so many times. But once we started to see the benefits it was such a relief. For us, we knew the root cause was DS wanting to be in our bed and with us, so we stopped even letting him in our bedroom at any time of day so he didn’t even get a hint of that as an option.

I had the opposite experience with DS although obviously everyone is different.
I co-slept for years and didn’t even try to leave his room before he fell asleep until he was 4. I used to put him down and lie on his bedroom floor until he fell asleep. Luckily, it was usually quite quick but some evenings it could take a looooong time and you feel like your evening is slipping away.

Anyway, funny story, the first time I tried it - I just put him in bed, said goodnight and went downstairs and didn’t hear a peep out of him and still don’t now. I find this highly amusing like for all that time I was lying on his bedroom floor waiting for him to go to sleep was he thinking “I dunno why you’re still here but ok, you do you” 😂😂

What is it about the smallest people in our lives being able to take up the most room when in a bed? It literally defies physics 😂

I defy anyone to have co slept with my eldest.

He snored like a 20 stone trucker until his adenoids were removed at five and peed through every form night time nappy, extra pants and sometimes the waterproof sheet (he slept so deeply he didn't wake up even when he'd done it).

I love him dearly but I'd have looked like the walking dead with him in the same room let alone in our bed as he is a wriggler too.

My daughter is not as bad but instead likes to press her legs into you and push off, toe nails first.

Thankfully i never introduced co sleeping as I think I'd have gone mad.

Crying is a very normal phenomenon. It is nothing to be scared of. Babies cry for loads of reasons, as do toddlers, children and adults. It doesn't mean they're going to be permanently damaged by crying a little.

Although I do find it ironic that it's the babies who aren't encouraged to sleep independently that often end up spending way more time crying in the long run than kids who get used to falling asleep quickly.

Because people have jobs, other children, responsibilities?

We can't all sit around holding our babies 24/7. If you can, that's a real luxury.

And from a mum of 3, I guarantee you it's not a short phase; children who aren't taught how to sleep independently often have sleeping issues well into primary school age.

• after getting professional help my friends child slept much better, stopped the habit waking for milk or water and did 4-5 hours continuous sleep. She only wakes once a night now. No CIO method

CIO is a touchy subject for obvious reasons. I think it was quite obvious as well what kind of responses you would get, writing on AIBU.

All I see is a mum desperate for a good nights sleep. I know a good friend of mine had spent 20 months without a single full night sleep and in the end considered CIO because she was so depressed and sleep deprived.

You are not a bad parent. But I would definitely advise speaking to a professional about better sleeping habits. I am not an expert, but I always thought the older they were the harder it was to start sleep training? It doesn’t sound like your daughter responds well to gentle methods, so I am guessing you might struggle with CIO as well.

You may be able to google or do some research for people local to you who can look at your daughters schedule and help x

The people that say it is cruel are often those that also are very very tired….

Crying rather than lack of sleep (for all involved) seems like the better option.

It depends what you do and how, if you know your child is sleep deprived and miserable and is getting a miserable sleep deprived parent then going back intermittently to say goodnight in a calm loving way is not unkind. It’s not as simple as all crying is bad. As a parent you have to trust your judgement, way up the pro’s and cons and do your best. There is not a simple formula for a good life with a happy child.

Babies NEED sleep. Sleep is the answer to everything. A couple of nights of crying works a treat and massively reduce the amount of upset a baby/toddler goes through. They learn that they can self settle. They are happier and less stressed.

You seem set on doing it (again) anyway so why bother writing a whole thread about it in the hope of getting people to justify your actions?

a lot of people won’t, many people (and children!) feel CIO is cruel and not at all ‘kind’ in any way…

join a fb group such as the beyond sleep training project…you might find some ideas, or some rational thinking

Thanks mate.

YANBU. It really is down to each family though to figure out what works best for them. Extinction often works faster so less crying overall! But some parents prefer to go slowly which is also fine. Extinction, graded response (Ferber) both are equally as effective and safe so it's just personal preference.

Kids need to learn to regulate themselves and to manage some distress. It wont do any harm.

@notarisingfan I've been there with intense sleep deprivation. My son is almost 5 and, like a previous poster, has some additional needs.

Sleep has always been awful. And I do mean awful. People who haven't been there just can't physically understand how it feels. So I really do feel for you and I don't blame you for considering the extreme options.

Just to say, we tried Ferber with ds at 11 months old after all gentle methods had been rendered useless. He hated co sleeping too. We followed the book carefully, had a solid plan etc. It didn't work. He wasn't "self settling" at all, he was just screaming himself to exhaustion and we felt awful.

I physically couldn't do full cry it out, I know in my heart it wouldn't have been right for Ds. He's a very anxious, sensitive child and has genuine struggles with relaxing enough to sleep because of how he is wired.

What I will say is, once I let go of "fixing" things and relaxed, that in itself helped. We started Fixing other things like how to make early starts easier, how to make the house run easier for days we were exhausted. From 8-18 months I sat in a travel cot with him on my lap them moved him off and climbed out 🤣 At 18 months we took the sides off his cot bed and I'd lay with him until he went to sleep, each time he wakes too. He now sleeps in a small double, I read or we listen to an audio book until he's asleep and he very often sleeps through. If he needs me in the night we've got plenty of space and he often just goes straight back off tbh. Things like a banana before bed, child safe magnesium/lavender foot cream, routine etc really helps. Fresh air after tea if possible.

Generally I'd say things improved massively at 3 (I know, not consolation to you now) then again 4. He's almost 5 now and started school in September, I hesitate to say it out loud, but his sleep can now often be comparable to my friends children, sometimes better.

I'm not saying do or don't, I'm not saying "just wait 4 years" I'm just saying I understand how you feel and I hope things improve for you soon, one way or another.

My younger one was an absolute nightmare and we tried everything but she could scream and cry at night for hours. By 18 months I was at breaking point. The GP was about to refer us to a sleep clinic when I stumbled across a piece of advice that turned it all around in two days. Basically a sleep pattern reset

Instead of trying to settle her in the early evening, we kept her up and awake until we were ready for bed. She was so tired it was only a token protest and she slept longer than she had ever done. The next day she was only allowed a very short nap and again we kept her up. She slept in til 7am!

The third night we put her down an hour earlier and again she slept through. We repeated this every night until she was sleeping 7pm- 7am reliably every night.

The downside was a very tired, very grumpy, utterly horrible toddler in the evening for 2 nights but it was well worth it.

I did the same - and when you go in, my book said (!) to not touch them, say the same short phrase every time so they know you're there but then leave quickly and start your timer again. Up to a max of 5 mins, when you get to 5 mins don't increase it anymore, just keep repeating. Not easy but it did work for both my babies. If it's more than an hour though, give up and try again the next night. I've got 2 great sleepers now, neither of them remember anything of course and we all have a good night's sleep xx

Exactly.
I have just posted a similar comment.

I despise CIO.
If I were upset/crying/distressed and my DH didn’t respond/left me crying for a while, I’d be absolutely furious and would feel very unloved.
I’d be extremely resentful and would think him very cruel and cold.

And yes, I spent many nights/hours trying to settle 2 DC to sleep/back to sleep. I had two, under two years of age.
I did not and would not have ever left them to cry.

No, I didn’t teleport to their bedside if I heard them crying. It might have taken me a minute or two to get up the stairs.
Yes, it was exhausting and yes, I had work the next day. A class full of kids, to be precise, so no flying under the radar there!

I also had many nights of changing wet beds; they both went through long phases of this.

They’re now 16 and 17 and will text me if they are unwell or if they need me. They are by no means mollycoddled! I have fairly vociferous arguments with DS2 😂

I don’t claim to have been the perfect parent. But I would never have left my children to CIO. Because I’d hate it if someone who ostensibly loved me, left me to “self-soothe.” GTF.

We used cry it out. It isn’t cruel. You make sure they are alright. Say goodnight and close the door. Go downstairs and pour a glass of wine. I’m not saying I agree with it, but years ago we knew a couple who did this with a brand new baby!

I think this was in response to my description of cry it out vs controlled crying?

Tbh, i am amazed there is so much support for Cry it out on this thread. I'm sure research came out to say the crying floods the baby's brain with stress hormones and can affect them long term?

I had excellent success with both cry it out and controlled crying but i'd always recommend controlled crying now. In combo with a fixed bedtime routine. It works just as well and nearly as fast.

To the modern co sleeping method (ancient but modern!) my granddaughter is on that method. She (12 months) happy as a larry. Parents both look like the walking dead!! They can't use any babysitters and even lie with her for daytime naps. That might be ok with a first baby where one parent stays home (as is the case for my GD)

But - i had 5 kids. And found it an absolute breeze because i had undisturbed sleep every night. I also worked as a childminder, returning from each mat leave when my new baby was 6 weeks old.

So - i do think - for our working lifestyles, it is really impt to get a full night's kip so you can be a great parent by day. And i just don't think co sleeping facilitates undisturbed sleep.

All mine adult now. There doesn't seem to be any difference between cry it out DCs and the controlled crying ones - but who knows.

Still a big fan of controlled crying.