To think cry it out is kinder than gentler methods

Depends what you mean by cry it out..
Some babies do self soothe better if a parent isn't there.
I can tell when my baby is tired abd just wants to be placed alone in the dark. She gruzzles for a few mins and then falls asleep. If I stayed with her she'd get hysterical as she'd be trying to stay awake to interact with me and would get overtired.
However some babies cannot self soothe and need your presence to calm down.
I would not ever leave a baby crying for more than 30 mins (unless its an emergency obv) . Less if it's hysterical crying, maybe 10 mins.
Personally I think you have to play it by ear.
If you think your baby is getting more worked up by you being there then yeah, leave them alone for 30mins to see if they settle themselves. Not all babies will tho unfortunately.

I haven't read the full thread and I'm not going to. But I'll tell you that from a very young age we left both our babies to settle themselves to sleep and if they cried, we left them alone to 'cry it out'.

I hated it. Really. There was one time my husband physically stopped me from going into the bedroom to pick up my son to cuddle him. But he was right because on that occasion, just a few minutes later our son stopped crying and fell asleep.

Both mine slept through before 3 months old. By 'slept through' I mean: fed at about 7pm. Sleep till about 10. Another feed, then sleep till about 6 or 7am.

I think we did the right thing but I do remember some days being absolutely awful when they cried for what seemed like ages.

In my experience children will sleep through the night when they are ready regardless of what we do ! My first 2 slept through from about 12 weeks my next slept through at 4 YEARS !!! No difference in parenting styles my next was a bugger for about 2 years and the last was like her big sibling and slept f try on about 10weeks . The worst sleeper even now doesn’t need much sleep . They are all in their 30s now and you will get through it but it is hard . Try what feels right you . If you feel comfortable with what you choose life will be easier good luck’
oh please note our granddaughter is now asking every night and it’s harder when your 60 !!!!

You sound exhausted, and if you are, the baby probably feels worse as they need even more sleep.

I think crying for one or two nights is better than snatched minutes of sleep for days on end.

I have older kids and this will be one of many battles you’ll face. Take no notice of named methods either. You know your child. Try different things until you find the thing that works, including, (once you know they aren’t sick or hungry) just putting some soft lighting on, playing some lullabies, shutting the door and going downstairs, listening out and if it goes quiet quietly popping you head in to ensure they are ok and asleep.

Well that's a strong opinion you've formed there. Gosh reading so much into what I said.

You seem overly invested and massively projecting on the presumptions and arrogance. Just lighten up😂

PS I agree with the PP - DS2 did NOT want to be held when he was overtired (unlike DS1)

I would say it depends on the child, no one approach fits everyone. My experience -

DS1 (terrible sleeper) would get hysterical to the point of vomiting if left even for 5 mins. This was not just as a tiny baby but up to 2 years old. I could not do CIO with him despite being absolutely desperate for sleep. It was cruel and counter-productive. After I went back in he would sob and hiccup for a good 2 hours all red-faced and upset. So I did not try it.

DS2 - same parenting, different child, different temperament. Would get cross for a few mins if I-one came to get him, would stop crying the minute I went in and be happy and sunny (the crying was to shout for me / being cross, not upset crying) and learnt to self-settle within 2 days with minimal upset.

I don't need my opinion or sentences to be "fixed up" by you.

Perish the thought that people have different opinions.

Exactly.

People are quick to snap that all babies are different when it comes to sleep training not working for every baby but then all babies seem to suddenly be the same when someone explains that something else works for their baby, including the fact that not all babies want to be cuddled, rocked or comforted to sleep.

DS slept so much better when we realised that. He would turn his head to the side, do this low, whiney cry for 2-5 minutes (something he only did when tired) and then go to sleep. Cuddling etc would lead to actual crying and less sleep.

I have 5 kids and they varied massively on how well they slept as babies. 3 of them slept through from very young and didn't need much comfort from me at all. The other two were very bad sleepers and struggled to fall asleep and to stay asleep. They're all older now and they are mostly the same, the good sleepers still fall asleep quickly and sleep soundly, the bad sleepers can still take longer to go off and don't always sleep well (although a hell of a lot better than when they were babies) . However, I'm glad I never did CIO because as much as it was extremely hard at the time I never wanted them to feel like I wasn't going to comfort them.

Thank you Ms Expert on Everyone, I am 52, post menopause and slept in until 1pm last Sunday.

I wasn't the one trying to tear other mothers down by labelling them cruel. Holding someone accountable for their remarks is not aggressive, maybe it just feels that way because you can't justify it.

The lady doth protest too much.

I've researched my choices, and I'm confident that while I might not get it always 100% right, I'm definitely not doing anything that is raising my children's cortisol levels unnecessarily. You're very defensive and aggressive for someone who supposedly feels the same...

I will read that as you personally haven't done any reading on it or actually done it but feel informed enough to label others parents 'cruel' for doing things differently from you.

Multiple links posted up thread. Shall I Google that for you?

It wasn't obvious to me I should respond when they cried at night given going in again and again resulted in hours of crying whereas just leaving them resulted in 15 minutes of crying.

Incidentally, my CIO child was an excellent sleeper from 2 and still is now half way through primary. The one I let into our bed, sat with in the night and patted to sleep (because I didn't have a baby to take care of at the same time) is still dreadful and has woken every night for the past year aged 4.

You have no idea what I did at night time.

Repeating my request for any actual evidence apart from just your opinion?

Did you sit in silence and totally blank your child when they cried during nappy changes or in the car? Or did you talk to them and let them know you were there even if they were unhappy? Because that is a huge difference. If you didn't react to their distress at all then that is cold and inhuman. And I suspect you'll feel annoyed I said that because in your head it's obvious you responded. As it should have been when they cried at night time.

YANBU.

Sleep is important. Depending on the child, CIO can involve less crying so does seem kinder than weeks of crying just to be able to say it was ‘gentle’ sleep training.

Ultimately, what is ‘gentle’ depends on the child. It’s all about finding something that works best.

When a dog is kicked we know it causes pain that is why it is widely accepted that it is cruel. The same does not exist for using cry it out. The two most common arguments are it's cruel and the child gets the message that 'they are alone, no one is coming.' With zero explanation or evidence to support.

A child crying does not equate to cruelty. My child cried far harder in the car seat than she ever cried during sleep training. Should I have just let her roam free in the car as she expressed her discomfort? She roared when we changed her nappy for a solid month, should we have just let sit in a soiled nappy as we didn't want her to cry? Or was crying acceptable in these situations as it was important she becomes comfortable in the car seat and when changing a nappy? What make one cry cruel and another cry ok?

The other argument is people attaching their own meaning to the child crying. There is no way anyone can say a baby interprets it as 'no one comes when you cry.' In fact the evidence suggests otherwise as sleep trained babies do not stop crying. They still continue to cry to express needs. They will still cry at night when they need something, like a nappy change or water. So they clearly have not interpreted is as no one comes when they cry.

But I would be very open to reading any actual evidence that you based your opinion on?

It should say average not beverage!

I was shown a method where you let the baby cry for ten minutes, then you go back in and to settle then you face the baby away from you, put it on its side and pat it with both hands, like you're playing the Bongo drums, quite strongly for 10 minutes. This is to calm the baby, not send them to sleep. At first it doesn't really calm them (if they're anything like my baby was) and they just cry for the whole 10 minutes you're patting them.

But after 10 minutes, you leave and then wait another 10 minutes. This is the heartbreaking part as they are just crying there for 10 minutes while you wait. Then you go back in and pat again for 10 minutes.

You repeat this over and over again, all night if necessary, until the baby sleeps.

We did this at 6 months and night 1 that baby did not sleep almost at all. But night 2 they slept like a log (probably because they were exhausted from night 1) then night 3 and 4 they were a lot better than night 1 but still needed a lot of patting. They needed patting like this less and less over the next few weeks but it greatly improved their sleep and witching a few months they were sleeping through the night with only one or two wake ups a week. It stayed at a beverage of perhaps one wake up per week from about age 12-18 months and then from around 18 months they slept without any trouble every night.

So this wasn't an instant solution but compared to waking up every hour it was amazing and changed our lives.

You're allowed to take into account what's kind to you as well, you know.

Yes, do whatever it takes to get some sleep.