To think ds (4) is annoying

I find music really helpful from an immediate consequence point of view. DS1 (who is 5) is currently really into Danny Go and when we have that on it means that there's a really easy "DS1 we're currently listening to the music you like, but I'll put it off if you don't stop X/Y/Z". It's also all action songs, so good to get out his energy and he likes me dancing along, which is easy and reminds me that he's very fun.

But I spend a lot of time outside. Everyone (particularly me) is just calmer outside. And the noise levels are easier to manage.

For reassurance, DS1 at 5 is miles better at DS1 at 4!

It’s normal for a 4 yo, but of course you have to keep guiding them away from it so that they don’t remain that way as they get older!

Deliberately annoying any sibling or other child would be one I’d keep a close eye on as it’s not OK to let that one slide.

The witching hour! You think that after the colicky screaming baby phase they move on, but actually they just have new behaviour at the same time of the day. DD is definitely more annoying, more attention-seeking and her listening ears stop working in the couple of hours before bed.

Like your DS, her behaviour is worse when my attention is split across siblings and I fall into a constant NO NO NO DON’T pattern that’s hard to break out of because you just can’t fucking think! In quiet times I’ll read all the advice and the how to talk so they’ll listen and gentle this blah blah, but when they’re doing something dangerous on their sibling’s head and you’re trying to cook tea while they simultaneously fart on your foot, talk relentlessly, endanger the toddler and want you to watch their hopping skills, all the advice gets forgotten.

She’s worse when hungry or tired, but also my annoyance is ramped up then too! So ensuring snacks and sleep for her and hiding in the loo and mainlining a bag of Haribo for me helps. Also what we call “lovebombing” helps – seeking her out and giving her 15-20 minutes of full-on undivided attention: no looking at my phone or thinking about my to-do list or also cooking dinner or doing a wash, just solid interactive play with her, and making clear to her this is what she’s getting (“Let’s play just you and me, not DS” or “Can I play Lego with you?” coming from me not her). She then buggers off for HOURS, it’s great. It’s when I physically or mentally can’t front-load the attention into her day that she becomes more and more demented, and I become more and more likely to yeet her into a wheelie bin.

Yep. Sums up my feelings about my 6 yr old DS!

Oh god all kids are annoying OP to some extent.
Take comfort from the fact that you are probably getting the brunt of it and he probably isn’t like that when he is with other people

Sounds like my 13 year old 🙃

Yes, that’s why I was careful not to diagnose OPs child. It is likely something that will be outgrown. Mine also had some issues with speech and is dyspraxic, which was the initial thing picked up on by school. So it wasn’t just the behaviour in a vacuum. I still think though, if it feels like your DC is at the extreme end of normal it’s worth making note of the behaviours. Just in case it actually all adds up to ‘abnormal’ in future.

I have actually considered this for mine, but I don't think so. He's stubborn and irritating and high energy, but he behaves perfectly fine at school, does his homework without any issues, can organise and manage himself with ease on anything that interests him. He's just... a pain.

You must know some very strict parents as we are discussing a 4 year old not a fully developed adult, I knew loads of kids like this- all NORMAL behaviour as it is a learning curve.

Ill probably be crucified for this.

But, if you are confident you are parenting properly, I’d keep a close eye on this behaviour. DC1 was like this. Constant need for attention, good or bad. Always in our faces. Seemingly no idea about personal space. Absolute live wire who never, ever seemed to learn from consequences. I could take away all of his toys and TV time and he’d just do the same thing again, he was so impulsive.

At 4 a lot of parents around me were beginning to relax and didn’t need to be on their child like a hawk. I never had that luxury. Like you it felt like I was permanently parenting him as he was so low level disruptive.

He is now awaiting an ADHD diagnosis. Your child could well still grow out of this. But if you think you are parenting as well as the next person but not seeing any improvement, just make a few notes in case you need them in the future.

You have just described my DD, turns 5 tomorrow.
She's cranked up the annoying a notch since starting school.
DH and I are both teachers, we parent her not to be an ass hat but we are mostly alone amongst our fellow parent friends in thinking she needs a bit of firm discipline and boundaries sometimes.

I agree. I have an 8yo ds who never behaved like this at 4. Just reading op posting how annoying this child is, irritated the crap out of me. My ds had lots of friends as well that didn't do this. Who is he doing this to? If it's other people you need to step up and parent him. If it's in the family, I say the same. Letting him think this is normal, won't be cute and funny at 5/6. I don't think this is as normal at all

DS1 wasn’t like this - but DS2 certainly was. He was an attention-seeking interrupter and knew exactly when and how to cause maximum embarrassment.

Letting him know what behaviour I expected beforehand with a firm reminder when he inevitably did it, worked well . And I did use the threat of losing a treat - that worked best of all. Once I’d carried it out once (cinema) he learned pretty quickly. I was pretty certain that he’d misbehave at church so I didn’t buy cinema tickets for the Sunday afternoon. It could have been tricky if he had behaved. The following week I reminded him that he wouldn’t be going again if he kept interrupting and being silly.

The golden rule is never to threaten anything that you won’t carry out. So I never threatened not to take him to a party or to cancel his own party etc, but not going to see a film he was desperate to see was a golden opportunity.

Eventually he grew out of it - probably when he realised it wasn’t cool - 7 ish? …

I would keep calling him out on his behaviour. “You’re too close to me” when he’s in your face, “that’s too loud” when he’s shouting. Try whispering some words and make sure you’re not shouting as he might be copying the adults.

This is why I struggle with the 4-8 age range. They are just so silly. Friends kids are around that age now and they drive me insane, particularly the 4 year old.
Its the stupid dances and the ‘watch this’ and the constant in your face and screeching… ugh.
I adore them, but I can only cope with them in small doses!

I remember ages 4 and 5 and while I can smile now it was definitely hard some days back then.

DD just never stopped talking, never, about nothing, just noise for the sake of noise and attention.

There were ways to improve it, like acknowledging her desire for attention immediately and setting a target for when she'd get it, "hey DD I hear you and will be with you in 2 minutes when I've finished putting the washing out.." but it was hard work and constant.

It did improve, now she's 10yo and only annoying some of the time.

I think you can guide and explain kindly but I wouldn't be OTT about it and ignore him as suggested by PP, he's a little boy and that's just horrible. I have teens and one is nearly an adult he's a very kind young man and that's the way I brought him up.

Yes, that was my thought.