The way some people let toddlers behave......

So you genuinely think that parents should allow their toddlers to all do what they want, because they can only behave well once they hit a magical age date?

This is the attitude that seems to be prevalent where I live. Just pure learned helplessness and endless demands for compassion.

Yorkshire/Midlands border.

Your tale just sums things up for me really. It’s not the children essentially, it’s the blinkered, unsocialised, uncaring parents that are at fault. I can fully accept that some children have issues outside of the normal range, I can fully accept that all children at some point have tantrums. But what I don’t accept, and yes, will judge harshly, are those parents who simply cannot be bothered to put much parenting effort in. It’s a form of abuse almost to me, not raising a child properly to take its place happily in society, and without the basic skills to function as a balanced human being. It is a serious risk that could affect their education, their ability to form friendships, maybe even getting a decent job, and having a loving relationship.

Perhaps it was the manner and tone in which you spoke. The way you say something is far more important than the actual words you use. People have seemed to have lost the art of civilised conversation and just bark commands at people, then wonder why the outcome is never great!

For anyone that says their toddler stopped tantruming and doing things that displeased them because you parented well and reinforced the discipline over and over again. I call bullshit on this also. The reason their toddler stopped was because month by month and week by week their child was growing up and got older, then they moved onto the next phase of their life, which children naturally progress to. Time took away their behaviour, not because you smugly and patrionisingly parented them so well. You may wish to believe it was your fantastic parenting skills all you like, but facts are facts and no matter how uncomfortable the truth is, no one can really be controlled let alone a 3 year old.

@Getitwright that's awful! What area are you in out of interest?

My truly awful story I shared earlier. My 2 year old and I were essentially bullied out of a sandpit (still yelling as we left) for daring to ask parents of an almost 2 year old to stop her throwing sand directly into people's faces.

I agree it’s unacceptable but how do you stop a 6/7yr old hitting in a shop really because they want something? Like you can’t just remove them if you are in the middle of paying and parent has done the right thing by saying no to buying.
I got told off by a woman for holding my son when he was 5 on the street firmly by the forearm because he kept running off the pavement into the road, can’t win!

No. It is not a straight line from more autistic to less autistic. If you must describe it as a spectrum then it's more like a colour wheel, with different colours representing different traits and abilities. Autisic people have their own unique combination of these traits.

It sounds like you need to do a lot more research before deciding you're qualified to diagnose your child autistic.

Have to admit that I'm somewhat bemused by the idea that you can't tell a toddler not to do something because they'll have a tantrum. Of course they will; it's what toddlers do. But it's by removing them, and telling them no, that they learn not to be tantruming school age horrors.

In a rough town in the north west. I'd say it's 50-50 responsible/irresponsible parents, based on what I encounter just getting the bus or walking down the street. Mothers shouting and swearing at 6 year olds, a father holding his teen son in a chokehold with the mother screaming at them both. Year 7s making the top deck of the public bus unusable.

I have to bite my tongue and look away most days.

I suppose it depends a little on what “truly awful” is, but I would say it’s bad where I live. I have no less than ten teachers in the family, one or two now retired, rest cover reception up to 6th form, and includes a Headship. They all say there are very bad days in the schools, and too much valuable learning time is being spent on either trying to teach very young children some basic skills, or trying to manage the very bad behaviour of some older children. The one who is a Head had two very small children excluded within a fortnight of the new Sept term when she took up her role. The parents were appalling. But you see it out in the community as well, older children on illegal ebikes and escooters, on the roads, weaving in and out of traffic, doing wheelies head on to oncoming vehicles, pushing wheelie bins into the roads, this sort of thing. Then there’s the feckless duo, shouting and swearing in town with a couple of little tots in tow, or the tots are right on the edge of a busy road, while parent/career is too busy scrolling away on their phone to notice. Really is appalling.

YANBU. I went shopping yesterday and in most of the shops there was a small child running about or pulling clothes down whilst mum browsed and ignored them. One or two were challenged and immediately started bleating “oh but COVID” even though the kids didn’t look more than 3.

We then tried to go to a restaurant for dinner (at 8pm so not like at peak kiddie time) and left because of kids of varying ages running around the place and shrieking.

MN will just tell you’re smug or that you don’t remember what it was like, or worse that everyone just needs to #BeKind to parents who can’t be arsed. But you’re not wrong and it’s making being in public really unpleasant.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom (great username btw) absolutely. With a 'I cannot let you behave like that here for X reasons. We need to leave'

And I've not forgotten @Wishingplenty, im only seconds into the preschooler phase

Absolute nonsense. I have two toddlers and if I couldn't make them behave at least reasonably well in public I would take them home.

To other posters...does it feel like the norm rather than the exception in your area?

I'm in the south west and can only think of one example in the last 5 years where there was truly awful "permissive parenting". Would still say the majority are quick to redirect/explain why certain behaviours aren't acceptable etc and then deal with ant subsequent emotions which might come as a result of the child not getting their own way. I wouldn't say on the whole it feels any worse than when my nephews were small, they're now teens.

I totally understand the point you are making OP. It’s the lazy, ineffectual ‘parenting’ that is utterly frustrating. The toddlers are only doing what toddlers do but when their parents are nowhere to be seen or are chatting/on phones, or think it’s cute (insert tinkly laugh) then the toddler is only learning that what they are doing is correct and ok.

You have to be on it all the time, ready to jump in and correct unwanted behaviour, it’s the only way they learn. A child doesn’t just magically learn to use please and thank you or turn taking once they reach age 5, it’s after consistent reinforcement over time from their parents. It is hard work, a real commitment to raise a decent human being but parenting isn’t easy if you want to do it well.

I actually wince at some of the behaviour I see and think I wouldn’t have dared even think about doing that as a child!

I have recently started a new class with my youngest (age 2) and I can’t believe what absolute carnage it is. One little boy is allowed to charge around and push/kick/punch all the other children while his mum just stands there beaming with pride at her ‘darling boy’ as she frequently calls him. The only thing I’ve heard her say to another parent while laughing is ‘sorry, he’s a brute!’ while doing literally nothing to challenge or change his behaviour. That kid will be a nightmare once he starts reception if she doesn’t start teaching him how to behave soon.
Other children there are snatching toys off other kids or pushing them off the equipment as they want their turn etc yes, toddlers do this but to just allow it to happen time and time again is shit parenting.

Tantrums are unpleasant but you can’t shirk your responsibilities as a parent just to avoid them. I have two older children over 10 and the decline in decent, effective parenting from when they were toddlers to now is astonishing!

You are right but brave. This is MN and many believe that it matters not a jot if a child never has contact with it's father.

I don't think OP sounds smug. I think she sounds like she's frustrated that her own children's nice days out and experiences are being hindered due to the lack of parenting from others. Yes toddlers can get into everything, but that's why you watch them like a hawk at that age. You don't get to relax the hawk eyes a little until they're somewhat older.

Utter piffle. It is a very short period in your life but you have to watch them like a hawk, and teach them how to behave.

And for sure if a toddler is standing at the bottom of a slide, and telling the child to move, and shouting "someone better claim their toddler before it gets hurt" i will physically move the child (hand on back gentle giding them) out of the way so the rest of the kids can play.

I have always - pre kids, while kids were small and now with grown-up moved out kids - told the toddlers "no" and then if it is repeated/carries on said, loudly "where are your parents"

And for sure people hate you talking to their kids - tough tits, there is no reason my life should be impacted by your poor parenting. And often enough i get a lot of people saying "good, thanks"

Some ridiculous comments here! Nobody has forgotten the ‘difficult toddler stage’, one of mine was a real handful but she was not allowed to behave like this! I can remember a few occasions where I had to abandon plans due to her behaviour and go back home, funnily enough she soon started getting the message that she could not push other kids out of the way and that her tantrums wouldn’t be tolerated! Kids need boundaries and this gentle parenting bollocks just makes people look like inconsiderate dicks! As an ex teacher I have had to deal with the repercussions of this at secondary school, kids thinking they can do exactly what they want and then parents wondering why their little darlings have no friends! It’s lazy and actually detrimental.

I remember friends letting their toddler repeatedly run across in front of the (very low) stage during a Christmas show a few years ago whilst they smiled indulgently. The poor kids who were performing were so distracted, as was the audience.

In comparison, my dc came into my graduation when she was two a couple of minutes before I went up, and then sat on my lap for a couple more, but as she wouldn’t be quiet (naturally) I threw her back to dp to take outside again. It wouldn’t have been fair in anyone had I kept her in.

@Wishingplenty
No need to wonder what yours are like. A bloody nightmare.

Toddlers act that way because that is the stage they are at developmentally, they just need to grow out of it. Usually asking a toddler not to do something results in screams and tantrums.

Yep but they don't grow out of it if you try and avoid it. You pick them up screaming and move them off the foot of the slide, and they learn over time that the tantrum achieved nothing.

@WestwardHo1 it's interesting though when you think of it like that, and then consider in the 50's kids were often outside from dawn till dusk without any 'parenting' (if you listen to my parents and grandparents anyway!) yet stereotypically you can't imagine them behaving like in the OP's examples. Now children are more supervised than they've ever been before, they basically have no autonomy, yet the perceived level of considerate behaviour etc is at an all time low.

I think this is a big part of it, definitely.