AIBU to think it doesn't matter whether the government is Labour or Tory?

If you genuinely can't tell them apart then that shows a staggering amount of ignorance.

There are many posts in this thread alone that would help you understand

You are right OP, Labour and Tory are two sides of the same coin.

I can't tell them apart tbh. But I'm also in the middle - not too poor, not too rich.

But OP, that IS to do with Government policy. Who sets regulations and funding? Who is supposed to forecast population increases and plan appropriately in terms of e.g. building more schools, hospitals, improving antiquated Victorian pipework, replacing the towerblocks that were whacked up after the war and were only ever supposed to have a useable lifespan of 20 years, funding councils, attracting educated people to the skills we need to foster to create a more productive society etc?

Really? I'm 62 and have seen the country swing from prosperity to austerity.

Do you only think about yourself?

Plus the economic distortions and perverse incentives that you introduce by trying to withdraw these things at certain income levels, which as I said harm productivity and economic participation. There's robust evidence on this. No matter what level you do it at, you create a distortion and disincentive to work.

Progressive tax is fine but with regular, linear levels, not distorted by withdrawals of other aspects of state provision. You distort economic activity and people make different choices. At £100k income the tax cliff edge including childcare withdrawal results in a marginal tax rate of over 100% for many i.e. if they work more hours/ accept a promotion they will have less money. You don't have to be a genius to understand why discouraging such people who pay a lot of the tax we need from working/ earning more is a bad idea...

Independently and highly respected economists have all concluded that these cliff edges are discouraging productivity gains and economic activity at every level of earnings (UC then child benefit then the withdrawal of the personal allowances and tax free childcare etc). Hunt commissioned i dependent economic research on low UK productivity and was told this is one of the primary drivers. Yet didn't fix it. Ignored it. Reeves has been told the same. Will she fix it? I'd hope so but I doubt it, because she can't be seen to be doing anything that might benefit people on decent salaries even if it makes everyone else better off as well!

It's just lazy, that they can't be bothered to explain this to people and will do what will score political points over what will raise living standards and growth, which they claim to want.

As I said, any Chancellor with a brain would address this immediately and the economy would improve in a matter of months.

Even the Guardian reported on these economic studies on this matter. It's not a party political issue but neither party seems to be able to resist attempting to turn everything into one. Very sad for the UK and all that live here that some huge improvements to living standards for all and simple solutions to raise more tax revenue for public services by removing barriers to productivity are not implemented because our politicians are obsessed with their various agendas and not at all interested in what has been shown to actually work^^ and result in improvements for everyone.

www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/13/full-time-part-time-work-no-longer-pays-uk-economy

Well OP, like you I'm 60 and I wonder how you can not have noticed how different life was different in the 90s and early 2000s compared to now.

Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
Low mortgage rates.
Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.
Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.
Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
Employment is at its highest level ever.
Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.
85,000 more nurses.
32,000 more doctors.
Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.
Restored city-wide government to London.
Record number of students in higher education.
Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
£200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.
Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.
Banned fox hunting.
Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
Free TV licences for over-75s.
Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.
Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
Free eye test for over 60s.
More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
Free entry to national museums and galleries.
Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.
Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.
Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

14 years of Tory government and the world is a whole different place.

This Labour government have settled the train and doctor disputes and immediately stopped the latest riots. I agree they've made a cock up of the expenses thing but if they carry on as they have started otherwise and do a 10th of what Labour did last time it will be better than the shambles the country is in now.

Obviously you can believe what you wish, however:

1. evidence from many countries shows that "benefits" such as childcare funding, child benefit etc being universal is beneficial. a) this saves costs (oftens means testing costs more than it saves); b) it creates buy-in to the system, so higher earners support the continuation of these things (even though they still pay way more in tax than they get back so are paying for this benefit for themselves and for others simultaneously). The fastest way to eradicate the state pension entirely, for example, would be to means-test it. All that would happen is that those who are funding it would lose vestes interest and support for it (even though they pay in many times what they get back if it is universal) and therefore the threshold would be frozen/ not uprated properly/ criteria gradually tightened until it's inflated away or virtually non-existent.

This is why universal benefits/ services work. The higher paid pay for themselves and others but everybody receives them that way they have wide political support and are not eroded, and those who pay high taxes feel they at least get something for their money so support it. If they are simply treated as cash cows - forced to fund everyone else but mot even able to access the services they pay for - then that is the fastest way to destroy any welfare state at all. Bevan was in agreement on this.

Roll back 15 years and services to the general public including the most vulnerable in society were far superior.

It makes a massive difference. The NHS and social care has been abysmal under the tories

I agree with a lot of what you say @SunriseMonsters but I disagree that this government won't do anything to improve our lives here.
I also don't believe that CB needs to be universal, but I do agree that there should not be such a cliff edge in terms of losing benefits like CB, when earnings go above a certain point. The problem is they are constrained by lack of money to do everything that they would like to do.
The graph posted above showed NHS waiting lists improving over the labour government last time, I would expect this will happen agin this time around. I know from my own experiences that education and schools massively benefited from the Blair/Brown years, hopefully that will also happen again.
I am taking a wait and see approach that does not involve believing every rumour on twitter and here, they need a little bit more than 90 days to show that they can and will make a difference.

Sorry, UC taper rate. Not UK!

Thank you. Excuse the typos!! Rushing around as usual.

I just find it so frustrating that people don't realise that things can be different. A short trip to most other European countries demonstrates this very clearly: returning here afterwards is almost like going back in time for two decades. I suppose that shouldn't be surprising given there's been no real-terms increase in pay in the UK for the best part of two decades now precisely because of these policy choices, and our PPP per capita has (predictably) falling off a cliff as a result and will continue to do so if the issues I mentioned aren't addressed.

I had hoped that with RR having an economic background she might instigate some change and take action on these very obvious matters staring her in the face, yet so far there seems to be no sign of that at all. I fear she may be captured by the same party ideology that has wrecked the country to this point (whether it's been the Labour one or Conservative one, both have just compounded the damage over time).

We need politicians who make evidence-based decisions and address these key issues if we want rising living standards and security for the future for our children.

The one that is a short-term blindingly obvious win that the Government can fix overnight and reap economic rewards from within months is fixing the tax system as that's entirely within their control whereas changes to economic policy take time to feed through into the rewards being reaped. Still essential nonetheless, but for an immediate boost, any Chancellor with a brain would remove the tax system cliff edges at the budget! Yet from what's rumoured in the press she intends to entrench these further and compound the problem. I despair really. Then no doubt they'll scratch their heads and wonder why we have an evem larger trade deficit, skilled people retiring/ emigrating/ cutting hours. It's the Labour version of the Conservative Brexit "shoot yourself in the face as well as the foot, just for good measure".

If she had any sense her budget would drastically reduce the UK taper rate and raise the work allowance so people can earn more before the taper starts; and make child benefit, the personal allowance and 30hrs childcare funding universal again. And for God's sake don't mess around with pensions and discourage pension saving even further because that will not only raise future tax bills for us and our children but also decimate the already far too low levels of investment in companies that is essential for any prospect of growth. These measures would remove barriers to work and productivity and economic participation at every level and would more than pay for themselves.

But sadly - as with the Conservatives - I suspect this Government won't do what they need to do to improve life for their citizens because it's all about political point scoring (in whichever extreme direction the current Government is inclined) rather than pragmatic, evidence-based policy that will actually work.

How do you explain this image if which government we have makes no difference OP?

Did you see this OP?

@SunriseMonsters what an excellent post. Read it, everyone! ☝

Unfortunately there are loads of people like that. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that there's little point even attempting to debate with them. It's depressing.

I'm saying that migration isn't caused by Labour or Tory governments. It's a global problem - caused by issues within the country they're migrating from, like Ukraine and Syria.

That isn't something a UK government can control.

I don't understand - the gov response to things (migration or anything else) is within their control.

Oh this had me banging my head against a wall earlier. Does he think no one (not least his leadership opponents) would notice he started the process himself? Laughable.

I can honestly say it hasn't made any difference to me

Gosh - where have you been hiding?

Do you find it easy to get a GP appointment; are you/your family not on any NHS waiting lists? How have your recent rail journeys been? - smooth/reasonably priced/no delays? Are there no unemployed young people at a loose end cluttering up your town centre and drinking away their sorrows in ways that make them a nuisance to the public?

Do you have no thought for those who are suffering under the policies of the previous years? Is your life ruled by "I'm alright Jack"?

Totally agree there's no significant difference between any political party anywhere. Just tiny policy tweaks here and there. Democracy is an illusion to stop the plebs from starting a revolution. Anyone with truly radical ideas doesn't get anywhere near power.

There isn't a pie that is national wealth to be divided up and therefore more people = poorer people/ fewer services.

The US population is 5 times the UK population. Does that mean 5 times the people competing for the same number of GP appts? Of course not: with 5 times the people they have many times the number of doctors.

The quality of immigration obviously matters. Back when most of our immigrants were from the EU they contributed more tax than the average UK citizen, were more highly qualified in skills shortage areas, most likely to start their own businesses and create jobs employing others, and used social housing and public services less than the average UK citizen. Therefore, they raised the average standard of living for the average UK citizen by their presence here and their contribution. But people thought this was a terrible thing, apparently.

It is absolutely Government policy to determine what immigration we allow and from where, whether that immigration is beneficial to UK citizens, and to ensure that sufficient additional tax revenue generated by the population growing from immigration is directed to expanding services to accommodate the growing population (while still making a tidy profit on top from the surplus tax revenues, if they have an appropriate immigration policy and are accepting the people we need).

Obviously Government policy affects every area of your life. The public and state sector ponzi schemes are draining tax revenues that need to be spent on education, infrastructure and supporting key growth sectors so we have productivity increases and rising living standards.

Not reforming the NHS into a functional system like most other European models means we have some of the lowest health outcomes in the developed world for not much less as a share of GDP.

Selling off water companies has meant they have extracted billions on dividends without any sustainable business plan to fund the infrastructure improvements to sewers and resevoirs to serve the current population and lack of Government regulation and enforcement means they continue to pump sewage into our rivers and seas.

Selling off utilities means we now have Canadian, French and other nationalised companies making huge profits on us paying the most expensive energy prices in Europe while they can subsidise cheaper energy for their own citizens and businesses. This also means the UK is less attractive for foreign investment.

We have an enormous trade deficit as a result of Government policy (quadrupled by Brexit) meaning we are extremely reliant on external investment to stay afloat.

We have no long-term industrial policy, healthcare or pensions policy, energy or food security policy. Brexit has left a £50bn per year hole in HMRC revenue, rising annually.

The education system is a shambles with no effective regulator to enforce the law and is not equipping students with the skills required in the modern economy. Young people are saddled with debt when higher education is free in most comparable countries.

Childcare is more expensive here than in the vast majority of countries. Germany, France etc charge a couple of hundred euros per month whereas in the UK people have to pay thousands. This harm productivity and economic participation.

Our tax system includes numerous cliff edges which are preventing economic growth and productivity increases which are the only ways to raise living standards. This is well documented in rigorous economic studies yet no Government has removed them. Consequently people either work part time, retire early or the highly skilled emmigrate, against lowering overall living standards and tax revenue.

All of these are Government policy choices. All of them are proved to be negative for UK living standards since there is decades of data from other countries proving that their models work far better, which our Governments could choose to emulate.

I find it insane that any adult could think Government policy doesn't affect their life. I agree that there's little worthwhile difference between Labour and the Conservatives because both have (different) but ineffectual policy objectives that will not improve things at all. But that doesn't mean policy is not important and cannot make an enormous different to people's lives if we actually had competent people in charge.

Of course it makes a difference - the political dogmas of the Thatcher era have wrecked our social infrastructure - industries closing down, public services being hived off into private profit-making ownership - we are in a mess of their making. And they are mostly dead now so it doesn't make their lives a misery.

They control this country’s response to it though. A bigger population isn’t an issue if you invest more and train and employ more doctors, nurses, dentists, teachers…that’s policy.
Im 60 in 3 weeks and worked as a teacher for 35 years. I can tell you that it has made a huge difference who is in charge, particularly in the last 25-30 years. Back when I was a kid I think Labour and Tory basically did similar things, albeit for different reasons. The Tories have gone much further right from Major onwards, and that’s meant a Tory government has been unhelpful for ordinary people.

The big parties are all part of the World Economic Forum Uniparty.

When you vote for them you are only really voting for the colour of the tie, the policies only ever go in one direction. They will promise all sorts to get into power and then do as they are commanded.