To think increasing pension age isn’t going to add up?

@Windchimesandsong blaming the other is human nature though.

@Inslopia
I wouldn't say I'm naive at all. In fact I'm often quite pessimistic - or maybe, more accurate to say, a realist) about human nature. People (not everybody) seem more content to blame the Other, rather than realising it's perfectly possible to have, and then advocate for, a better society for all.

So, I'm just saying what should happen. Whether it will is up to all of us. If enough people want and call for it, instead of engaging in the pitting groups against each other game, than it can happen. Easily. Whether enough people will realise that? Well that is an unknown.

This

When I started full time work in 1983 my pension age was 60 for the state pension and now it is 67 (although I will probably work (for myself) until I die). Retirement age is a difficult issue and people live different lengths of time. My parents died in their 70s so I probably won't have too long if I ever do retire whereas I seem to be surrounded by neighbours in late 80s and even 90s still going strong!

The positions of the Government and a companies are at odds.

True - we may see more age legislation brought it when they realise this.

However assumption seems to be that as younger workers get scarcer they'll change to hang onto workers - not sure that will follow as easily as they think.

Though have heard in USA they are not happy with newest generation of graduates often firing them few years in - they often aren't willing to put crazy hours in pervious generations did and can be more demanding in other ways. Not sure what their company plans are to fill those needed spaces.

Obviously though to actually have a better society (easily achieved by ending the false economy approach, as I detailed above), it's necessary for a majority public consensus and to demand that

It’s really not easy to have a huge shift in society re how we do things. I think you’re a little naive.

@Windchimesandsong yes it’s absurd that billions of tax payers money is funnelled into private landlords when we could have more social housing. I’m fully aware of that.

There is the money. It's just being misspent.

As an example, billions is spent on housing benefits for private rentals. And billions on substandard temporary accommodation (plus billions more on the health and social care needs caused by lack of decent affordable social housing).

@Blossomtoes

It was you who said this?

Nope

You show me your stats and I’ll show you mine.

But you said I’d lay money on most people covering what they take out

so show us the money 😆😆

Obviously though to actually have a better society (easily achieved by ending the false economy approach, as I detailed above), it's necessary for a majority public consensus and to demand that. So the public - all age groups - needs to focus on asking for what's right and what's needed. Rather than different age groups, especially the poorest and most vulnerable of any age, being pitted against each other.

You'd be losing that money. This is from the ONS "In FYE 2022, 53.8% of all UK individuals were net recipients (living in households receiving more in benefits than they paid in taxes), a reduction of 1.2 percentage points since FYE 2021. A much greater proportion of retired individuals were net recipients (89.2 %) in comparison with non-retired people (46.0%), largely because of the classification of State Pension and Pension Credit as cash benefits." And this is only benefits. I'm not sure if the figures exist but it would be interesting to see how much education, health care etc adds up to over the entirety of someone's life.

And of course you have to pay tax in your retirement, you put that off and therefore pay less tax as a result.

@Windchimesandsong

“Good well-funded public services, supportive benefits system, more social housing, state pension age not too high and a sufficient amount of money to live on, improved child maintenance system, and jobs, education, and training opportunities.”

I don’t think anyone would disagree with the above but the issue is the money to pay for that, there have been years of chronic underinvestment. Taxing the “rich” isn’t the realistic answer though.

I agree too. Apparently it cost around £20bn to cut it, so would fill the 'black hole' to reverse it in one fell swoop. Rather than scrabbling around trying to find the money from various places.

I've heard that reducing the tax efficiency of pension contributions is being considered. Surely people should be encouraged to pay into a private pension??

many won't have even covered what they took out.

It was you who said this? You show me your stats and I’ll show you mine.

Salaries are going backwards I'm looking at a 10k pay cut based on my previous salary in this market just to get something ( currently unemployed.)

Got approached re a manager role, responsibility for all HR on site, needs qualified/ experienced etc and employer only willing to go up to 35k no more.
What's more rubbish is that they will find someone desperate enough to take it (not me )

Bring up what?

Still keen to see your stats though…

@Inslopia I agree that many of today's economic problems are because of the false economy approach - austerity etc

The way to address this (and hopefully the new government will do the right thing) is by ending the false economy approach

Good well-funded public services, supportive benefits system, more social housing, state pension age not too high and a sufficient amount of money to live on, improved child maintenance system, and jobs, education, and training opportunities.

The above would reduce need for support - the numbers of people in need at all and period of time of being in need.

Social housing wouldn't solve every issue, but it would make a major difference. Significantly lower housing benefit bill and lower benefit bill fullstop. Because:

a) less need for top-up benefits for lower wages jobs, and

b) fewer people needing sickness benefits. As the BMJ study found, private renting harms health. So a higher disability benefit bill, and costing the NHS and social care system billions.
(Obviously there's also the moral need for more social housing).

Then why did you bring it up?

But it’s redundant anyway as it’s paid forward hence why the pyramid turning upside down is the issue.

With our parents 3 out of 4 were made redundant in their 50s.

One tried for similar work but ill health meant ended up retried - lived off redundancy and p/t wage of other parents then personal pension then inheritance till 65 and could claim state pension as well.

Another was made redundant from skilled factory work that had left area entirely did slightly fewer hours as cleaner out more unsociable hours till retirement which was raised as they were part of female generation who lost out with state retirement ages.

Other one had skills needed but could find no work so set up own company and worked till 69 decreasing hours in finally years and only giving up when health heart got bad - that was physical job as well.

Finally one gave up work in 50s when elder care then spousal care and own health just got worse and worse - lived off savings with other parent till state pension kicked in.

I think it was easier as they paid mortgages off bit earlier than we likely will and as had kids younger so had more years to get in good place - so think in future it will be harder. What didn't happen was that they cost the state more money in benefits.

As population ages if they can pay out less in pensions by raising retirement age they will - and yes that will have knock on effects - to more on benefit before hand, greater poverty as assets get depleted before they hit payout date - less jobs for younger people in workforce and less childcare help for younger generations. However they are looking at one figure as it will get to be a huge amount and looking to see if they can push it back onto the population/individuals more.

I’d lay money on most people covering what they take out

Thats unlikely, but happy to be proven wrong.

Paying your share is paying everything expected of you throughout your working life based on your tax liability. I’d lay money on most people covering what they take out. The working life of today’s retirees spans roughly 50 years in most cases. Between income tax (which was over 30% basic rate when most of them started work), NI, VAT, stamp duty, fuel tax and council tax, they’re pretty certain to have paid their share. Add in that a high proportion continue to pay income tax in retirement, along with all the other taxes apart from NI.

We do have an issue with people living longer but in poorer health. That is what the healthy eating and exercise messages are about.

Times gone by a poor lifestyle may have killed people in their late 40s or 50s, now the same lifestyles will see people limp along until their 70s or even 80s with multiple long term conditions.

I agree-I’m 61 and do 15 hours. It’s quite a physical job so plan on staying until 65 if healthy-but could not do my job full time-it would send me to the knacker’s yard.