We will dance again

The Oxfam analysis was based on the Lancet’s letter “Counting the Dead in Gaza: Difficult but Essential. That is where Oxfam took the Gaza statistics from. However, the Lancet letter itself has dubious validity, e.g:

aoav.org.uk/2024/a-critical-analysis-of-the-lancets-letter-counting-the-dead-in-gaza-difficult-but-essential-professor-mike-spagat-reviews-the-claim-the-total-gaza-death-toll-may-reach-upwards-of-186000/

@RedHotWings

www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/more-women-and-children-killed-gaza-israeli-military-any-other-recent-conflict

You don't actually know that, but it is clear that you really really want to believe it.

@RedHotWings you keep telling yourself that to justify it if it makes you sleep well at night. But we all know there have been thousands and thousands of children killed by Israeli forces in this conflict and more so than any other.

Not sure what you want to remind myself of? That the army didn't give permission for the ambulances? Presumably you think that is because the IDF wanted that child to die a terrible death but actually there are many many potential reasons. The complete failure of October 7th demonstrates that he IDF can suffer terrible information and communication breakdowns. Or are you making a different point, I've got no idea.

@RedHotWings maybe you should take a read of this article to remind yourself.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/aug/18/hind-rajab-israeli-state-atrocity

Perhaps you could tell us the good faith version of military trained snipers hitting children in the head of several occasions now. Is it a mistake? Did they think the children were Hamas? What's the good faith version...?

This is what I mean by the automatic assumption of worst possible faith. No acknowledgement that it might have been an accident or a breakdown in communication.
This doesn't make the death any less tragic obviously.

Provide specific incidents, noting that I will not accept that events happened just because Hamas or Al Jazeera said so. Then we can discuss, if you would like to do so

Hind Rajab - I don't know whether the IDF was responsible but it appears plausible. If they were responsible, I would hope that the killing happened due to intelligence breakdown rather than intentionally. You and I both don't know. But even if it was intentional than my position would be that the responsible individuals should face charges but not that a single incident is representative of the entire IDF. All armies have individuals in them that do terrible things. But your rush to assume that IDF personnel were responsible, did it intentionally and that this is representative of the entire army demonstrates your bias.

Perhaps you could tell us the good faith version of military trained snipers hitting children in the head of several occasions now. Is it a mistake? Did they think the children were Hamas? What's the good faith version...?

Casualties implies being killed when you're.not the intended target. Sniping children in the head is murder and I'd say that regardless of which ethnicity the child was - it's called having a moral compass. I find your POV very sad. There's a lot of regurgitating of propaganda from both sides - and you're a great example of the Israeli propaganda that their expert snipers are hitting small children on accident.

What a ridiculous and distasteful comment. To imply that people are engaging in antisemitic tropes by talking about the very real and brutal murders of children is absurd and quite frankly heartless

I don't think it's ridiculous and distasteful. When I've had a look at the CITME section of the board, there is the utmost consistency in believing the worst-faith possible version of Israel's actions.

@RedHotWings Little Hind Rajab was killed by Israeli forces along with her friend. She wasn't a casualty. She was murdered.

Children are not being murdered but are causalities of a war started by their leaders. The doctors are operating in a tyrannical state so have to adhere to the Hamas position whether it is true or not and whether they are Hamas or not. I am not saying that children are not dying, I am saying that there are many useful idiots in the west regurgitating Hamas propaganda.

What a ridiculous and distasteful comment. To imply that people are engaging in antisemitic tropes by talking about the very real and brutal murders of children is absurd and quite frankly heartless. The figures are anticipated to be higher than what we are being told. It is not only Hamas giving this info. Do you think the Doctors reporting treating children who have been shot by snipers are making it up because they're antisemitic? Their accounts of operating on children without anaesthesia because they've been maimed by the IDF are absolutely horrific.

Of course you can mention many children have died. It is difficult to ascertain exact figures in a war zone, and both Hamas and the IDF have been caught out spreading lies and misinformation. Finding a reliable, non-biased source can be difficult.
Hamas and the Israeli government have blood on their hands, both have committed atrocities and both need to be severely punished through the international courts - not through continued bloodshed where both of them are largely shielded from the fighting, leaving civilians to be targeted.

It is widely accepted that the actual figure is probably much higher than the figures reported.

Fine to say that children have died in this war and I never said otherwise. But yes, I am saying that the Hamas figures about deaths are biased and unreliable so people should not revel in them to beat Israel with. And I am also saying that civilian deaths in war is not necessarily illegal, even if always awful.

So now you can't even point out that Israel have killed many children in this conflict? I see!

Are you actually disputing the numbers of dead children? What a disgusting thing to say.

If anything the numbers are probably too low.

l would also want people to be aware that Jews as child killers is an age old anti semitic trope, and therefore be cautious about emphasising child deaths in the current conflict. It is clear that children have died and that is awful. But the numbers are highly contested given that they originate from Hamas who has every reason to lie and has been found to lie in this conflict. Therefore, in this context, I am concerned that posts emphasising the number of child deaths are knowingly or unknowingly tapping into antisemitic ideas baked into Western thinking over thousands of years.

Hamas were worse than animals, the killing of civilians in Gaza is terrible but, Hamas very deliberately hide their weapons, bases and personnel beneath or amongst the civilian population, how can you eradicate something like that when they have no regard for the safety of their own population , if they were soldiers rather than terrorist cowards they would fight and have bases away from civilians

Atleast more European leaders are speaking up about time hey, French PM Macron has urged for weapons to be halted to Israel that they are using to kill Palestinians. I wonder which other countries will listen?

I agree @namechange11112222 and I don't know how Isreal can now agree a 2 state solution when Hamas have infiltrated aid workers and also set up ammunition stores in kindergartens and hospitals. Until Hamas are no more Israel and her citizens will never be safe.

Because that's what happens it's how it works it's how Israel is getting away with murder