We will dance again

It's never antisemitic to state a fact. If the state of Israel is killing children, it is not antisemitic to say so. They have been killing children in Gaza, and that is not in question by anybody... other than you apparently. So you can throw the word around all you want, but you're wrong and you're doing a disservice to those trying to show real antisemitism.

I said that Jews as baby killers is an age old trope and people should be cautious about applying it to the Jewish state. Cautious doesn't mean banned, and I think it is entirely appropriate.

We might disagree about dead children in Gaza or Israeli actions, or a million other things. I don't think I have ever read any posters saying that the hostages shouldn't be freed. I think if people with different views on this whole awful war can agree on even one thing, that's something positive.

Anyway, this thread was about the film about the Nova festival. I know everything is all wound up together in a hideous tangled knot. I heard a British woman on the radio today whose daughter had been kidnapped by Hamas and is still held. If she's even still alive, I dread to think the tortures she's enduring.

Dispute the numbers of children killed, if you want. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Hamas had deliberately killed Palestinian children. I'm sure this isn't the vast majority though, they will have been killed by Israel. But to imply or link people who don't dispute the numbers of dead children with antisemitism, painting Jews as baby killers is really not on.

@RedHotWings I also saw quite a lot of reports/footage of what was allegedly Hamas snipers shooting at fleeing civilians in Gaza, and this was prior to Israeli ground troops entering.
It seems they wanted them to remain and be "martyred".
Also what was most likely an IED that took out a number of vehicles heading south.

Politics and history aside...
It wasnt something I had planned to watch, Im glad I did.
Because regardless of what you think of Israel and its politics, the loss of civilian human life is always tragic. No one deserves it, on either side of this conflict. The young people at that festival didnt deserve it.

The documentary is really well made. Seeing it all through the clips shot on mobile phones and with the added footage from CCTV piecing it alltogether was frightening and very powerful.

I dont know if any inquest was finally published by the army took so long to respond?
Also, was it ever known, seeing how the rave was announced very last minute on social media, if the terrorists somehow knew of it in advance and planned the attack, or was it just something that happened and they used an opportunity?

1. the figures are from Hamas and Hamas lies

The explosion that killed and injured many civilians at al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza on October 17, 2023, resulted from an apparent rocket-propelled munition, such as those commonly used by Palestinian armed groups, that hit the hospital grounds, Human Rights Watch said today. While misfires are frequent, further investigation is needed to determine who launched the apparent rocket and whether the laws of war were violated.

The Human Rights Watch review of videos and photos suggests that on October 17 a rocket struck the al-Ahli hospital grounds,” said Ida Sawyer, crisis and conflict director at Human Rights Watch. “The victims and families of those killed or injured while seeking safety at the hospital deserve a full investigation to determine what happened and who was responsible.”

The Ministry of Health in Gaza said Israel was responsible for the explosion. The Israeli military said the explosion resulted from an Islamic Jihad rocket that misfired"

2. yes, it is conceivable that the children are shot by Hamas

3. Yes, it is possible the the doctors either are Hamas or are afraid of Hamas.

The western doctor's are Hamas now? Not even the IDF are claiming that...
Again, your rush to be certain speaks volumes about your world view
Considering your rush to first dismiss the number of children dead as a made up lie, to then saying they may be being shot by Hamas and that the Doctors treating them are also Hamas I think you could do with a mirror.

Not what I said

Exactly. And I won't waste another minute arguing with them because it's pointless.

The doctors are not neutral, they live under the thumb of Hamas and can often be Hamas. So I don't automatically accept what they say and what they say is often circumstantial. I concluded not that the IDF definitely wasn't responsible for any of the shootings but that we just don't know. Again, your rush to be certain speaks volumes about your world view

Wow what a way to read things exactly how they weren't written because it challenged your world view. It said some doctors didn't know the circumstances of the shootings not that they suspected either side. Other Doctors said accounts, locations etc led them to believe they were killed by the IDF. It then goes on to say that that in some cases they have the proof they were shot by Israeli ammunition and all you got from that was that maybe Hamas snipers killed them? Despite the long history of IDF snipers targeting children that's all you have to conclude?

Macron appears angry that the IDF went into Lebanon rather than trust his assurances about Hezbollah, and wants to curry influence with Lebanon, as a previous colony. He may also be aware of domestic politics.

Hamas also has snipers. And the doctors quoted in the article either say that they don't know who shot the civilians or, at best, there is circumstantial evidence that it is the IDF. The IDF rejects the claim. So basically, we don't know and it comes down to what we want to believe.

Have you not seen the protests happening against them around the world? Have you not seen the French PM urging an arms embargo against Israel? Is he also an anti-semite? People are seeing the IDF for who they are and some people are not happy about it.

I already asked you specifically about the reports from Doctors treating children with sniper wounds. Not Al Jazeera, or Hamas. Are they lying to spread an antisemitic trope? Are they saying this because they're unknowingly antisemitic? Or you could talk about any of the figures provided by human rights organisations or the UN. Are they also making up the accounts? There's also many documented cases of snipers targeting children in the West Bank. I'm not sure why you feel that you're going to find a single specific example where it's defensible for a military sniper to shoot a child in the head of chest or anywhere really.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war

I asked earlier for examples and nothing has been provided. Just because Hamas or Al Jazeera says something doesn't mean it is true. And I am sure that in urban warfare where one side is intentionally integrated into civilian facilities, against international law, such communication breakdowns are not uncommon, unfortunately.

No, it is sick how quick people are to conclude that the IDF is brutally murdering children as it speaks to their worldview and prejudices

Based entirely and directly on Hamas figures.

OP I would never in a million years try and justify that attack on October 7

i would think badly of anyone who did.

it was a horrific massacre.

i also do not think Israel should be wiping out entire communities in Gaza

it’s possible for me to hold two thoughts in my head at once.

Accidents and break down on communications don't happen again and again and again though. It's the same with the aid workers - how many times does one of the most skilled militaries in the world make these mistakes? You would have to have no knowledge of the skill of a sniper if you really believe they can repeatedly hit children by mistake.

People will really twist themselves in all ways rather than admit that the IDF are brutally massacring children. They are sick

@RedHotWings

dppa.un.org/en/gaza-number-of-children-killed-higher-four-years-of-world-conflict