We will dance again

I just can't imagine the English people accepting a Welsh massacre in their name...

Oh but it wasn't a single doctor or journalist at that time. There were many of them. They attended every massacre and were reporting clearly the atrocities. There were many images and videos coming out at that time. It wasn't any kind of leap to suggest that the figures were a conservative estimate.

If Israel are the good guys, surely it is in their own best interests to keep the observers safe. Because there will definitely be a day in court at some point.

Please answer the question instead of deflecting hypothetical actions of Hamas. Why aren't Israel allowing them in to do their work?
It's perfectly possible regardless of the figures provided by Hamas for experts to advise a rough indirect death toll based on the conditions in Gaza, the lack of healthcare infrastructure, famine etc. These experts are expecting the death toll be higher than even claimed by Hamas. If you are certain it is less than even claimed, can you tell us what you expect it to be and what evidence that's based on? Considering the bombings plus the indirect risk to life through lack of food and healthcare, what do you think is a reasonable figure so far?

It does need real independent verification, yes. Glad we're clear on that. In the absence of such, she's merely guessing, and none of the medical experts have the access needed to give an accurate figure. You seem to think that pointing out that Israel are preventing this access somehow makes the claims that have been made about civilian deaths more reliable. It does not. There are no reliable figures.

Hamas are not the ones currently declining entry, but that's not what was asked. You answer my question before posing any to me. Do you think Hamas would leave any independent assessors to do their work in peace, and to publish any results that might be inconvenient?

No I was clearly referencing the PP point that the death toll is expected to be higher, which is the opinion of medical experts however it needs real independent verification which is only being declined by Israel. I haven't seen any evidence Hamas is declining entry to independent assessors (not that they would have a choice as is is Israel who controls who goes in and out of Gaza). Israel have been consistently declining to allow this so it doesn't really matter what hypothetically Hamas would or wouldn't allow. In your opinion why are Israel declining independent journalists and investigators to assess the death toll?

The Hamas claims are based on this? Can you show us the evidence of that? I don't just mean them saying it, I mean actual proof. The working out.

Independent assessment of the death toll seems vanishingly unlikely at present. Do you think Hamas would leave any independent assessors to do their work in peace, and to publish any results that might be inconvenient? The Israelis couldn't make them even if they wanted to.

Well it's not based on nothing, it's based on the opinion of medical experts looking at not just bombings as cause of death but expected deaths from the general health conditions everyone is being put under through famine and inadequate access to healthcare.

It is Israel continually refusing access for independent assessment of the conditions and the death toll. Why is that? Surely if it's guaranteed to be lower than suggested why would they not want that verified asap?

Well if you're posing such a hypothetical question why don't you tell us in your scenario? Quite why your posing that all the Welsh citizens would want the English dead I don't know, unless you want to just come out and say that you consider all people in Gaza as wanting Israel "wiped out and killed" 🤨Would it be appropriate to displace 1.2 million people in Wales? What would be the acceptable civilian collateral damage for Welsh citizens? Would be appropriate to cut off supply of food and water to Welsh civilians? Would it be appropriate for A English politicians to say there is no such thing as an innocent Welsh person? Would it be appropriate for English soldiers to mock the displaced Welsh people as they post social media videos slut shaming the Welsh women's and their lingerie left behind where they've fled their homes?

Well, they have form for arson on second homes back in the 70s and 80s

The Israeli's had the world's sympathy on 7th October but they have squandered it since. The Gazans might have been persuaded to give up the terrorists responsible for the massacre but that won't be the case for generations now...

No single journalist or doctor could possibly be capable of accurately calculating a death toll.

Your punt that the Hamas claims are too low is based on nothing at all. We simply do not know. The only people making claims about the civilian death toll are Hamas, and they are liars.

The only way the death toll is in question is if whether it is too low.

At the beginning, when most deaths occurred, there were still doctors and journalists verifying the stories emerging from Gaza.

The only reason the numbers can no longer be verified is because journalists were either killed or left because safety wasn't guaranteed... same with doctors. Which suggests that it is Israel who doesn't want the true stories and numbers getting out.

So the written constitutions of Hamas, Hezbollah & the PLO are "propaganda"?

You're probably too young to remember the PLO or "Black September" - try Googling "sky jacking" or the 1972 Munich Olympics.

I can remember wondering which passport it was safe for me to travel on in the 1970s.

It is a fact not propaganda.

This is just propaganda now.

FFS have you ever watched how Israeli youth act on Jerusalem day? The pure hate for Arabs that they shout?
That's just one example

FFS there are lots of images of young Palestinian children dressed in Palestinian flags carrying guns. This is not a competition of who hates who more. HTHU

How about Hamas and Hezbollah stop trying to kill all Jews - because that is what is in their constitutiuons or manifestoes.

The PLO had as the first statement in their founding document, the destruction of the state of Israel.

Why do they all hate Israel - a democracy which gives Muslims the right of religious freedom, unlike most other ME countries? Could it be , oh maybe just maybe, because Israel was established as a place of sanctuary and safety for Jews?

Oh gosh what a coincidence. But oh no, no Jew hatred to see here.

Remember that antisemites project their worse beliefs and behaviours onto the Jews. Every accusation is a confession.

Self defense isn't "antisemitism".
How about Israel stops genocide.

I don't think Hamas give a jot for ordinary Palestinians. I also don't think the Israeli leaders do at this point.
I suppose if you are getting bombed or shot at whichever side you are on, you sent that bothered, in the moment who's doing it and why.

I agree @RedHotWings. I haven't said anything other than any of that. I've said it had become normalised that Gaza was effectively a prison and had been for years. Great that it was getting better. Awful for people that had to live that way for the preceding decades.

While Gaza was still experiencing significant poverty and restrictions, applied by both Israel and Egypt, Hamas chose to commit the butchery at a time when Israel had taken steps to channel funds into the Strip and Gazan workers were more about to enter Israel to work than had been possible for a long time. I say this not to diminish the poverty that much of the population were in, but to make two points. First, Hamas demonstrated conclusively that it doesn't care, at all, about Palestinians but used the enclave as a launchpad for War, which validates the concerns that led Israel and Egypt to enforce the blockage. Second, the poverty and normalisation doesn't explain, at all, the sheer glee, delight and brutality of Hamas on that day.