We will dance again

Egypt closed the border because Israel displaced millions of people and Egypt can't take them.

Don't deflect this blame on to Egypt!

Are you suggesting that Israel tried to ethnic cleanse Palestine by forcing them into Egypt? Because that is the only way you could blame Egypt in this scenario... by not accepting the refugees created by Israel.

But did it make sense to rehome and resettle Palestininans to make room for so many people and lose their own? Why did someone else have to lose their homeland?
It's a tragedy on both sides. One side removed to make room for another, neither guilty of anything but wanting to live their lives. Neither asking for what was to come.

The displacement of Palestinina people created a lot of trauma that didn't just desappear because treaties were ratified and because of some other people needed a home too.

People in Gaza are not trapped there because of Israel, but because Egypt closed the Rafah crossing - the problems Palestinians have caused in e.g. Jordan, and the way that Hezbollah has destroyed Lebanon, make other states reluctant to take in refugees from Gaza.

Those people are stuck. Many of them support Hamas and Hezbollah; if they did not it would be much harder for Hamas and Hezbollah to hide within those communities. People don't hide terrorists they disagree with.

Israel withdrew from Gaza twenty years ago. Gaza gets its electricity and water from Israel. Gazans did not have to vote in Hamas as their government, they chose to. I said if I were in Gaza I would not speak against Hamas because I want to stay alive.

I suspect those who truly hate Hamas have quietly left over the last decades to make a life elsewhere.
NB bear in mind that apparently Palestinians working in Israel provided the intelligence that allowed Hamas to attack so successfully on 7th Oct. I am not sure what to say about that. Hamas rules by fear so refusing to pass on information probably meant harm to families (as it did in Ireland during the Troubles if one disavowed the (P)IRA in any way - terrorist organisations tend to operate in the same way).

Of course, I am horrified by the deaths in Gaza. But I also saw footage on 'We will dance again', that reminded me forcibly of shoot-em up games. What did Hamas or Gaza expect in return? This is Israel they attacked - a state known for thousands of years to retaliate against enemies with great force. Hamas did not give a shit for Gazans when they attacked on 7th Oct - some government.

So this is your logic:
-people in Gaza are in danger from both Hamas and the IDF
-No one can escape Gaza or escape Hamas because Israel has them trapped
-Anyone on Gaza who don't publicly rise up and oppose Hamas aren't innocent 🤨

Make it make sense.

If I don't like the IDF and publicly say I will not join it or support it, I will not be shot or thrown off a roof for objecting. The families of hostages (and others) in Israel are not shot or beaten up - they are free to demand their government does what they want and to oppose and speak against Netanyahu (who is culpable, too btw). Try that in Gaza against Hamas. Hamas (and Hezbollah and the terrorist state of Iran, which backs Hezbollah and also kills women for wearing their head scarf the wrong way) attacked and murdered innocent people with no warning. Any state is under an obligation to reply to this and if the perpetrators are the terrorist government of another state, the citizens of which in the main cheered on the acts, then the reply is going to be bloody.
I am bitter at the deaths in Gaza - and I know who to blame for them.

Absolutely and some funny bits pointing out the absurdity amongst the seriousness of it all.

Well lots of people would say the same is true for those supporting IDF and would commend the bravery of those who refuse to serve in it. Most sane people obviously condemn Hamas but at a certain point you have to accept that the responsibility for deaths from bombs dropped on civilians is the side that dropped the bomb. The responsibility of a child or journalist shot is the person who fired the gun. You can't blame Hamas for people killed by the IDF by using the old "they made me do it" excuse.

To some extent I agree with you - and I was using hyperbole - which shows how horrific Hamas are. To stand against them is to die, often unpleasantly. I doubt I would speak against them were I in Gaza - I want to stay alive. But those who supported Hamas are guilty, and to them also is the blame for innocent deaths. I hope they rot in Gehenna, quite frankly.

@Msfrustrated thank you for that as it truly was a vile thing to say. Some people have really lost their humanity.

What Hamas did was appalling and unforgivable.

so is the relentless indiscriminate killing of civilians including thousands of children.

Palestine now has the highest ratio of child amputees in the world.

I support the right for Israel to exist.

I support the right to practice your religion peacefully.

I condemn the way Jewish people have been treated throughout history.

I also condemn the actions Benjamin Netanyahu is choosing right now.

I am from a family who were deeply affected by the troubles in NI. I see what people are pushed to do when they feel they need to defend themselves. Unfortunately I think Israel and Palestine both fall into this group of people who have been relentlessly trying to defend their right to exist and pushed to atrocity.

@Grammarnut
The only innocent Palestinians in Gaza are the brave men (mostly men) who condemned Hamas for killing the people of Gaza. I hope they managed to escape Hamas for saying that truth - they risked their lives to say it.

I'm sorry - are you saying children aren't innocent? Babies who have been buried under the rubble aren't innocent? Children carrying their siblings body parts in a rucksack when they've been blown apart aren't innocent? What a vile and ignorant comment to make.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/oct/09/one-day-in-october-review-hamas-terror-attack-survivors-channel-4

I see the Guardian has outdone itself. How dare the filmmakers have made the terrorists look bad, and the victims sympathetic, by using Hamas' own gopro footage?!

I'm not convinced Stuart Jeffries realises he watched a documentary.

The Gazans might have been persuaded to give up the terrorists responsible for the massacre but that won't be the case for generations now...

That was never happening. Not a chance. Those terrorists ran Gaza. They were elected in fact. They killed any dissenters. Still do.

“The only innocent Palestinians in Gaza are the brave men (mostly men) who condemned Hamas for killing the people of Gaza.”

No … The only guilty Palestinians are those who took part in wrong doing or those who encouraged wrong doing.

I can’t judge them for not standing up to Hamas because I know if I was in their shoes I would probably be too afraid of the consequences.

The only innocent Palestinians in Gaza are the brave men (mostly men) who condemned Hamas for killing the people of Gaza. I hope they managed to escape Hamas for saying that truth - they risked their lives to say it.
Every death in this war is the result of the actions of Hamas on 7th Oct (remember they filmed themselves gang-raping women and little girls, filmed mutilating women's vulvas, filmed themselves killing babies, shooting children, killing fathers in front of their children, filmed themselves throwing grenades into shelters full of young people etc). Hezbollah is also culpable. Every single death in this war is the fault of Hamas.

And how long would Israel let them do their job? The question wasn't 'how do we get journalists into gaza?' It's 'how do we stop Israel from killing them so they can do their job?'

Not while the Israeli military presence is controlling the crossing and the corridor they can't. Hence why I said Israel are controlling who enters Gaza.

It's also Israel disputing the death toll, disputing the risk to life, disputing the deaths of civilians and accusing people of inflating it hence why I'm asking why they aren't letting independent journalists in to verify the claims of Hamas and their own claims.

What's the actual point or value of what you're commenting? What are you trying to say? That there is no possible way to ascertain a death toll after a conflict? Don't be ridiculous.

It's a ridiculous question with no logical basis though as the facts stand that the people denying access to independent verification has been Israel not Hamas therefore based on the facts it's more likely that the people who wouldn't let these assessors do their work is the IDF, not Hamas. Just as aid workers and healthcare workers are being disrupted, injured and killed by Israel not Hamas.So it really doesn't matter whether I think Hamas would let them assess the death toll or not. If I say yes or no, it doesn't matter. Let's say I say yes I assume they will now answer why Israel are denying the access?

You are saying we cannot trust the figures hence you are denying they are as high as they are. Therefore based on the level of destruction, bombardment and famine for a year now you don't get to tell others that they are wrong to point out the information we have while you provide no counter claim or estimate.

Which still doesn't mean they'd be capable of accurately appraising not only each casualty but the civilian or combatant status of every single one of them. And you can't possibly think every single incident was recorded, much less that a photo or video would provide all the evidence needed in every single case? It's completely implausible. Which has nothing to do with who anyone thinks the 'good guys' are or whatever tactical advice you might have for any of the parties concerned.

Please answer the question that was posed to you first instead of trying to deflect. You need to do that before you get to ask others.

Not sure why you've decided I'm certain the toll is less than claimed. Nothing I have written says or even implies that. The fact is that there are no reliable figures at all, hence I make no estimate.