We will dance again

I have genuinely not seen anyone not want Hamas removed though? Where have you seen that? What people are saying is that innocent Palestinians civilians aren't expendable in the pursuit of that.

The IDF - like every other army in the world- has some individual nasty bastards who need to be held accountable…. But at least they protect their own…unlike Hamas .

I despise Hamas more than the IDF because Hamas doesn’t even care about its own people.

Absolutely.

I still don't understand why people supporting Palestinians in Gaza wouldn't fervently support the removal of Hamas. Imagine living under a bunch of Islamist thugs who periodically pick fights with your better armed neighbour.
Don't they deserve a leadership that will actually seek a pathway to peace and growth? One that isn't an Iranian proxy?

But did it make sense to rehome and resettle Palestininans to make room for so many people and lose their own? Why did someone else have to lose their homeland?

And a very large proportion of Israelis were likewise displaced from surrounding countries.

I think it's just that - an inconvenient truth. I really hope people do question data from the government, some of the propaganda and outright lies which have been released and subsequently shown to be untrue shocked me, and I'm usually wary of what comes from any government, UK included.

It was your one experience. I have visited Israel countless times and never experienced this.

But it's not just that one experience.
It's interesting how any negative experiences along these lines are sort of swept away as 'it's just that one time' or 'fake news' or 'didn't happen'.
Just because it's an inconvenient truth, does not make it unreal.
I guess you dont question any data coming from the Israel government?

Your one experience is just that.

People who lost jobs because they spoke Arabic at work would beg to differ.
I visited Israel once many years ago. We were sitting on a bench when some Palestinian boys came up to us to chat. Within seconds we were surrounded by Israeli soldeirs with guns asking them to move away. Not sure that looked like equality either.

One thing I find really frightening: Hamas is classed as a terrorist organisation and you know how terrorists recruit? They use the actions taken against them.

They will take everything that’s happened, the thousands of women and children killed. The enormous number of people whose lives have been changed by violence, amputation, death, displacement.. they will say “look how they showed us no kindness. Look how they are different from us”

and it’s true. Future generations see that and think “yeah that’s right” and they will be drawn into it. It will be reinforced and the issue made bigger.

It will never stop unless every last Palestinian on earth is murdered. Both options are horrific.

Breaking down the lies of ethnic cleansing and the 'nakba'

Read “THE LIES OF PALESTINE” (below), by Jay Gadi…a MOST excellent piece.

• Arabs were in the land first: Their 1,500-year-old mosque is built on top of the 3,000-year-old Jewish temple, which is proof that Israel was there long before Arabs. The Israelites are mentioned 43 times in the Quran and the Hadith, but there is no mention of Palestine, not even once. The Qur'an specifies that the “Land of Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, that God Himself gave that land to them as heritage and ordered them to live therein.”

• All the land belongs to the Palestinians: Israel became a state in May of 1948. There exists an international doctrine called “Uti Possidetis Juris.” This doctrine provides that emerging states presumptively inherit their pre-independence administrative boundaries. Applied to the case of Israel, “uti possidetis juris” would dictate that Israel inherit the boundaries of the British Mandate of Palestine as they existed in May 1948. In the 1967 conflict, Israel absorbed additional territory from Egypt and Syria.

• Israel expelled thousands of Arabs: In May of 1948, Israel sent a letter to the Arabs living in the newly formed Israeli territory inviting them to stay and participate, with equal rights, in the future of the country. The Arabs of six countries refused to accept Israel as a nation and planned to destroy it and all of its population. They advised Arabs in the area to leave so as not to be caught up in the fighting. Hundreds of thousands of Arabs left their homes, voluntarily, on the advice of the attacking nations. Arabs that attacked Jews within Israel were expelled.

• Israel carried out ethnic cleansing in the Nakba: On the eve of May 14, 1948, the Arabs launched an air attack on Tel Aviv, which the Israelis resisted. This action was followed by the invasion of the former Palestinian Mandate (Israel) by Arab armies from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. After 10 months, Israel won the war in which many Arabs were killed and many others became refugees. Arabs called this the Nakba (catastrophe), blaming Israel for the death and displacement of the Arabs when, in fact, they were just defending their newly formed country. The original reason for the term Nakba, was the embarrassing loss of all those Arab countries against tiny Israel. They adjusted the term to make themselves the victims.

• Israel has been attacking Arabs for 76 years: Every conflict Israel has had with the Arabs has been started by Arab aggression including the Nakba, when six Arab countries tried to wipe out Israel. The only time Israel ever fired first was at the beginning of the Six-Day War, in anticipation of the attack being planned by Gaza, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel’s preemptive strike is why this conflict lasted only six days.

• Children in Gaza are starving: Israel has allowed more than 40,000 trucks carrying more than 500,000 pounds of food, water, medical supplies and other aid into Gaza. No other country does that for their enemy. (As of July 31, 2024)

• Israel is committing genocide: Hamas and hundreds of supporters, including nine UNRWA members, invaded Israel on Oct. 7th and INTENTIONALLY killed over 1,200 innocent civilians. When it is done intentionally, it is GENOCIDE. Israel has no intention of, or benefit from, the targeting innocent civilians.

• Israel targets women and children: Israel is the only military in the world that drops leaflets, sends text messages, uses “knock bombs,” announces their plan to attack by drones so that civilians can escape. The civilians who try to leave are often shot by Hamas and are included in their count of dead or injured civilians.

• Israel is holding Palestinian hostages: They are not hostages; they are prisoners being held in Israeli jails. They have committed crimes, from throwing rocks at the IDF to killing Israelis. They are not innocent civilians, like the Israelis taken on Oct. 7th.

• Gaza just wants peace: Arabs in Gaza get monthly cash rewards from the Palestinian Authority (PA) if they are injured, captured or killed while carrying out attacks on Jews. Hamas and their hundreds of supporters, including the nine UNRWA workers who carried out the attack in Israel on Oct. 7, are getting monthly rewards for their terror attack. The budget for these rewards is $300 million dollars a year. The Arabs are rewarded for genocide.

• Gaza is an open-air prison: In 2005, Israel removed every Jew, dead and alive, from Gaza hoping to bring peace to the area. The Arabs burned everything left behind by the Jews. Shortly after, rockets, suicide bombers, Molotov cocktails, explosives and knife attacks came from Gaza, so Israel was obliged to implement import controls to reduce rocket attacks and border checkpoints to prevent the other types of attacks on Israel. The Arabs turned their freedom into an “open-air prison.” They are posting pictures now of Gaza before and after Oct. 7 and it looked pretty good before.

No I am not saying Israel tried to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Nor am I unaware that refugees fled towards the Rafah crossing. But Egypt did not just close the border, there is a wall there to prevent unauthorised immigration. And I am not shifting the blame to Egypt. I am putting it fair and square where it belongs (for this war) and thats with the evil, vicious, murderous orgaisation called Hamas.

I agree with you @namechange11112222

Indeed, those who stayed became Israeli citizens with equal rights with Jews and other faiths. At present they account for almost 2 million of the population (about 21%).

Some people left, but some were forcibly removed from their homes to make space for new Israeli settlements. Not all Palestininans left their homes willingly with some promise on the horizon, many didnt.

Where did I suggest they need to publish them?

We are all seeing every day the operations undertaken by the IDF - mass bombing and breaking down all health infrastructure in Gaza while they plunge it into disease and famine. If they're doing anything else they aren't having any success at it are they? Unless you have anything to actually counter that they are doing everything to rescue the hostages (an opinion NOT held by their families) I fail to see what your point is except to try and scold me for stating the obvious that it's been over a year and they have made no progress at securing any hostages through military force except where they've engaged with negotiations.

I really wish you could let the IDF know how to 'undertake more tactical operations'! You have no idea what measures the IDF takes because it is not published. Why would they let Hamas know what they are doing???

I am not suggesting they can simply 'just' rescue them, what I'm saying is their current actions are nothing at all to do with rescuing the hostages or keeping them safe. They could definitely undertake more tactical operations if the hostages were their concern instead of carpet bombing whole areas where they could be and plunging where they are into famine and disease and shooting their own hostages in their underwear while they're waving white flags.....🤨 Therefore I maintain my comment which is that they don't give a shit about the hostages as we haven't seen any attempt to secure them yet.

Msfrustrated Israel cannot just rescue its hostages. The most recent time they tried to achieve this the six hostages were brutally murdered shortly before they could be rescued from an underground tunnel. It is said that Sinwar surrounds himself with hostages knowing that if Israel attempts to kill him, hostages will be killed too.

They were offered settlement in Jordan in the partition in 1947/8. The Arab states that begun the war against the fledgling Jewish state told indigenous people to leave and they would be able to return after the war. But the Arab armies were defeated and people were unable to return to their homes.

Well they are quite clearly just brushing over what people would be trying to escape via the crossing which is the Israeli bombs raining down on them in an area they were told to if they wished to be safe. Egypt was in a position of being complicit in the Israeli displacement and also risking Egyptians near the border encouraging people there to bomb it. Poster is also trying to blame Egypt despite Egypt continually encouraging and mediating talks to get it reopened for the sake of the Palestinians..it can't be ignorance at this point - it's total delusion and clinging to Israeli propaganda with no critical thinking.

Excellent post @Grammarnut

What a load of nonsense. Israel has seized control of the Gazan side of the Rafah Crossing. Egypt and surrounding countries know that Israel is trying to displace people and will not let them return to their homes. Israel cut off electricity and water to Gaza - don't try to act like Israel are being charitable by "providing" these to Gaza - they have maintained control of their resources for the very reason of being able to cut it off and effectively control whether there is civilisation in Gaza or not. Your entire comment is diminishing the blockade of Gaza and how Israel has kept people trapped in hell there - poor children growing up in effectively a prison.

Maybe you should look at the videos of Israeli soldiers social media of you want to talk about who is playing "shoot em up" games. They're openly laughing and mocking about shooting Palestinian civilians like it's a video game. Maybe look at the training camps they allow civilians and celebrities to attend and play at shooting like it's a game.

You keep reiterating about Hamas as though I'm suggesting they are good. Of course Hamas are shit but Israel also doesn't give a shit about Palestinians not does it give a shit about their own hostages else it would be trying to rescue them, wouldn't shoot and kill those that escape and wave white flags and would be listening to their families begging them to stop using them as pawns. The difference between you and I is that I don't expect terrorists to care or protect people's live but I do expect that of a government and a country who should be held accountable to international law like all others. Why are you reducing everything to help behaviour for terrorists as though them not giving a shit about Palestinians means Israel shouldn't give a shit? 🤨 Still waiting for you to clarify your genocidal comment that the only innocent Palestinians are the men who condemned Hamas btw!