AIBU to hate the ongoing concept that 'the man must propose'?

My dh proposed to me and it was romantic and lovely. Wouldn't have changed a thing. And I changed my name!

I get it that in a couple who have talked like equals about getting married and agreed to do so, that there is some fun and excitement in the man proposing, if your thing is to honour the patriarchal traditions of marriage. The roots of the invites coming from the brides parents are that the brides family compensate the groom for taking the financial burden of their daughter from them, the bride being "given away" harks back to times when women had no legal autonomy. Only when we have a society where women are really equal will these traditions become just quaint and harmless.
A colleague's daughter, a well earning professional co-habing with a similar male, really fretted about when he would propose. They had agreed to get married and he said he'd propose and it would be a lovely surprise etc. It took him 2 more years. She go to her mum and cry, question whether he was really committed; she felt shown up when she was with his family with them teasing her about when he would "pop the question".Im astonished it was accepted that decision about when they married was his alone.

Men also have their fathers name, so that's not an argument for changing your name. Why should his father's name somehow be a part of his identity but your father's name isn't a part of yours?

Be the level playing field you want to see.

If you don't act like you're equal, you're not going to get equality. If you don't feel you're on a level playing field with your partner and if you feel like you have a lot to lose, the aswer is not to be in a relationship with them, not to marry them.

However you can't deny that there is a cultural norm that is at play. A woman's way of proposing is letting the guy know she wants to get married. That's her proposal. Then if the guy also wants to, he does the ring, one knee thing. If a woman has let a guy know she wants to get married and he hasn't proposed, I'm not sure her proposing would resolve the scenario as she would be proposing to someone who isn't equally as enthused about the idea which seems like a recipe for disaster.

That's true. But it still doesn't mean she has to be completely passive. The threads that are along the lines of "we've discussed marriage and both agreed it's what we want, but it's been 10 years and he's still not proposed, what do I do??" are just silly.

They should be willing to say something along the lines of, "look are we doing this or not? Because when we discussed getting married, I was serious. And I need to know if you weren't" (Maybe in slightly nicer language). Rather than just waiting around with growing resentment, unable to discuss such a big thing with the person you love. You shouldn't have to be worrying so much about pushing him into doing something he doesn't want that you're choosing to be miserable and resentful over it instead.

Men overall might still out-earn women but what relevance does that have to any given relationship where an individual woman might well out-earn her male partner, or be on course to do so? Why would you base your decisions on generalised population stats?

If you are a much lower earner than your male partner and/or intend to sacrifice your career to have kids, then yes, marriage is a very valuable protection. But that only applies to a minority of women I know (one of whom has family wealth behind her that dwarfs her husband's salary).

@Alina3 9/10 the 'just propose!! It's 2024!' replies on threads are from people who know full well that the woman knows the man doesn't want to marry her, it's disingenous.

Then why on earth are you with a man who doesn’t want to marry you? (If that’s what you want?)

The tradition is based on a power dynamic and misogyny though, if you were to REALLY think about it. It’s a pity that you don’t let yourself see that because things will never change if the majority of people cling to outdated practices that condescend and control women.

But it’s your choice.

That proposing thing is total bollocks, I would never sit and wait for a man to ask me marriage, I would discuss it with him or just plain ask him if he wants to marry me. Having to wait for the guy to ask is just another power tool that the patriarchy came up with to control women. F-ck that noise.

That's no way to talk about Boris!

It’s not a ‘man’s name’. It’s your birth surname. It’s yours.

It's a tricky one, it doesn't serve women at all being expected to wait passively to be proposed to.

However you can't deny that there is a cultural norm that is at play. A woman's way of proposing is letting the guy know she wants to get married. That's her proposal. Then if the guy also wants to, he does the ring, one knee thing. If a woman has let a guy know she wants to get married and he hasn't proposed, I'm not sure her proposing would resolve the scenario as she would be proposing to someone who isn't equally as enthused about the idea which seems like a recipe for disaster.

9/10 the 'just propose!! It's 2024!' replies on threads are from people who know full well that the woman knows the man doesn't want to marry her, it's disingenous.

I didn’t give up my name but it is completely unfair to criticise a woman who does choose to take her husbands name. I acknowledge I still have a man’s name, my Fathers.

Men overall still out earn women, we are also still the only ones that can get PG and give birth. Women don’t especially need marriage but women who have children are almost always more vulnerable so do.

It is very much about economic viability.

When it comes to proposing, we did agree it’s what we wanted but DH did propose in the garden of his great grandparents house and it was very lovely. I would never have had a child with him without marriage.

We discussed getting engaged before we did it and everyone knew we were in a serious relationship anyway. We also discussed DH proposing and I knew when he would it- we're not big on surprises. It was intimate and perfect. It was technically an opportunity for a formal declaration of intent and marked the moment we felt we could "tell" people we were going to get married. We've also both had a rough time at the hands of others and DH wanted to give me my moment. I think he also wanted his moment. Neither of us is particularly self confident and the "traditional" set up suited us in terms of what we needed and got from it. DH just wanted to do something nice.

I took a similar view on tradition with our wedding- if we liked the tradition, we had it. If we didn't, we didn't include it. The only tradition I included that I didn't like was being walked up the aisle. My mum had a shit fit when I tried to leave it out, saying my dad would be heartbroken. I'm an only child in an extremely male heavy family and my dad is nearly 90. It made him happy. He also has more sense of occasionally than I do, so I probably did it better with him pace setting!

I am changing my name but slowly. It works for us. We also waited to get hitched to ttc as we felt more secure that way.

Doesn't bother me what others dalthough though but I don't see myself ever doing the proposing. My cousin was proposed to by his wife - no one cared about her doing the asking, we were happy for them. One of my friends admitted she was relieved her now DH proposed though, she was getting up the nerve to ask him but was glad she didn't have to! She's also not especially self confident.

I do wonder how many women don't propose as they're conditioned not to vs people like me who personally get more from being asked than asking.

I agree, it's such an outdated and ridiculous way to start something that is so important. I think it should be something you agree together and plan together. You wouldn't wait for someone to get on one knee and and surprise you to decide to make any other important life choice. Imagine saying I want to move house or have a child but I waiting for DP to decide when he wants to do it and to surprise me, gosh I hope it's this Christmas. Bananas. But then I also hate women routinely giving up their names for their husband's name.

I guess I never felt that it wasn't a level playing field - I never felt that I had more to lose than my DH, or that I would benefit more from marriage than he would.

You seem to be starting from an assumption that women have more to gain from marriage than men. I don't think that the research necessarily backs that up, but it's typically how our society likes to frame the issue.

I think it's irrelevant what the man wants. The point being women generally still have more to lose, therefore it's important the men we marry actually want to marry us. So buying a ring, proposing and setting a date at least shows some effort.

Best case is clearly both people just agreeing to be married.
However it's very easy to move in together and simply stay in long term relationship for no real reason. I don't think it's helpful for women to,propose to take it to the next level unless she has actually nothing to lose. Men don't give birth, mens age matters less than womens, women still have a more to negotiate in terms of physicality. Men proposing acknowledges the fact it's not a level playing field, not that it's a romantic ideal.

This is my view of it. I've been married to a bloke and am now in a civil partnership with my female partner. In both cases, it was simply a mutual decision and nobody proposed to anyone else.

I find the women on here waiting for proposals from men and getting upset about it a bit sad, if I'm honest. Have some agency and dignity in your life!

The biggest red flags are the men who suddenly become traditional when it comes to proposing, but are modern enough to be shagging, having kids and living with their unmarried partners otherwise. Always a bad sign.

I know, I really regret not giving the kids mine.

I also agree re proposing. I think it puts the ball so much in the man’s court, and gives him too much control. With the woman either feeling she has to wait until he wants to propose or feeling pressured to accept a proposal she might not actually want due to centuries of societal conditioning . Almost like “well he’s put himself on the line to propose, you must have been expecting this to give him the impression it would be accepted, so you have to accept now”.

I definitely wasn’t ready to be proposed to by my ex when he did - I’d spent most of the relationship thinking how would I end this without hurting his feelings (wtf?) and ended up married with two kids!

This makes me sound ridiculous and passive but it was before I had any counselling, got my arse in gear re my own needs and boundaries.

Edit - I should say it was me who decided I wanted to have the kids.

I think there is something more going on though.

Basically, if a man doesn't want a woman but she is chivvying the relationship along and he's meh about it - then you get the scenario whereby she wants to press go and he isn't bothered, until someone comes along who he IS keen on.

Then you get the whole 'he never really loved me, he looked at other women all the way through, he isn't a very good quality guy, he's lazy, he's not good enough, but I wanted it so I chivvied it along and now he is leaving or I've had enough'.

I've done it myself - found a man, thought he was great, found him a job, helped him dress better, helped him in a hundred ways only to realise he wasn't that interested and he wasn't that good - it was me that wanted it and pushed it all along.

So yes, to me personally - if a man loves me, he will want to ask me properly to settle down. If he isn't that interested in me or our lives don't really align very well, he won't be that keen.

I wish I had been less keen on certain men and not wasted my time tbh. I wish I had sat still and waited to see how keen they were - do they text, do they make plans, do they show their interest or is it me? And when they do show interest, I still wish my standards had been higher at times, not that they were bad men, just that they were not right for me personally.

Even though your opening line was So many threads where people are waiting for a proposal... 30 mins after a post about exactly this. Ok.

I’m 55 & none of my friends had a proposal either. They went out with each other. Talked about their hopes, dreams, aspirations. Decided they aligned & that loved each other &’got on well enough to get married. Then they did.

Rape within marriage used be a tradition too.

Getting married is a contract & with all contracts there comes obligations, terms & conditions. Seems daft to let somebody else be the main driver.

Indeed!

I'd also point out that it's all very well for women to frame their desire for "tradition" as an individual choice, but children who grow up in a household where the parents place importance on traditional gender roles aren't going to have a great time of it if they don't conform.