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Original poster

Overriding next of kin rule

59 replies

AnotherAdventurePassed · 28/09/2024 16:29

Hi, I'm not sure if this is in the right place but any advice is welcome.

Context: My DB is 24, an addict and is in and out of prison. We are both very LC with our mother, however his unfortunately isn't by choice and still IMO craves a relationship with her regardless of how that affects him. Mother is in the process of obtaining a restraining order against DB.
DB is currently in what I believe to be a hostel/supported living accommodation though I have not had the specifics confirmed. This was arranged upon release from his last prison stint. The worker for this place has been trying to contact my mother for the past couple of days, so they can arrange a meeting to discuss his needs and to put a care plan in place i assume.

Mother has basically avoided the calls until today when she begrudgingly returned the call and was quite rude to the worker saying she didn't want to play any part in this meeting and won't risk her position in life or chance of getting this RO by entertaining anything to do with him. As far as she is concerned she will pass her details on but she wants nothing to do with him.

I, personally, think this is disgusting and yet another show of how self absorbed she is. To be frank, she is the reason he has ultimately ended up down this path in the first place. As she is next of kin the accommodation won't entertain discussing DB with any other family member therefore I'm really worried he won't be able to have someone to advocate in getting him the support he needs (in reality he's needed something like this since he was a child).

My question is, is there a way to override this NOK requirement at all? If so how? Im worried that if it isn't possible for another family member to step in to help with this, our mother is basically going to screw him out of this support that may or may not be his only chance to get on the path to finally having an opportunity at a "normal" life.

OP posts:
ThePure · 28/09/2024 18:15

Yes she's made it clear she doesn't want involvement but it doesn't then somehow go down a list to the next family member. Many people are estranged from family and just don't have a NOK or anyone involved and make their own decisions with what ever support they can from the social worker or an independent advocate can sometimes be involved for unbefriended people who might lack capacity.

It comes down to if he wants family involved he needs to say who he would like it he may choose not to have anyone involved.

Original poster
AnotherAdventurePassed · 28/09/2024 18:12

Just to be clear, as stated in the OP. My mother has today informed his worker that she cant and doesn't want to attend meetings, have any involvement in the process and with him directly. She told them about the application for a restraining order, which for some reason they have asked for evidence of, and that she would give them her email address for emergencies only on the condition that brother did not get access to this information or for it to be used for any other reason than an emergency.

I know this information because I was at my DGP's when she had this conversation word for word with my GM. Both my DGM & DGF commented that her priorities are clear and wrongly only revolve around her.

OP posts:
ThePure · 28/09/2024 18:09

They would probably ask him does he want to provide someone else to be his NOK/ family contact and he can then nominate someone. If he doesn't nominate anyone then no-one will be contacted.

The reason that we ask for one main person to deal with is that otherwise in some families Uncle Tom Cobley and all start ringing with their two pennyworth often conflicting with one another and all wanting to be separately informed. It is often unclear who actually has the persons best interests at heart.

We don't know your family and we would be guided by what the person concerned (your brother) has said.

Why not just call him if you are on good terms and say 'I'm sorry mum didn't want to be involved but I am here for you. Would you like me to be the point of contact?'

NeedToChangeName · 28/09/2024 18:04

Justkeepingplatesspinning · 28/09/2024 16:40

I'm not sure about this situation but as far as the NHS are concerned this man's mother would be the legal next of kin and even if he stated his brother, they'd not override what they rightly or wrongly view as the legal nok.
It's a really difficult situation and if the authorities working with your brother don't view him as having capacity for some reason, they're going to expect to have your mother making decisions for him. I hope it gets resolved for all your sakes.

Show quote history

If brother lacks capacity, then (1) decisions wouldnt be made by his mother on his behalf, unless she is his attorney or guardian (2) mother might be "nearest relative" as defined in legislation, which would give her the right to be consulted

Original poster
AnotherAdventurePassed · 28/09/2024 18:02

Next of kin really isn't a legal concept. It can be whoever the person concerned wants it to be. If they were so insistent only to speak to her then that will have come from him and who he has consented to share info with I'm afraid

Thank you for this information but hypothetically... if she was to get this restraining order banning any contact, unless he changes that consent to others, would they just not liase/share with any one of us for him at all? Or would they have to then ask him to provide another family member?

Overall I'm understanding the consensus is this request has to come from him and can't be something I can just call up and ask to be involved in. Which unfortunately just renders things pretty useless for him.

OP posts:
sparkellie · 28/09/2024 17:57

Op, I think your mum needs to tell them she doesn't want to be his next if kin, and for them not to contact her. The problem at the moment is that she's allowing them to have her details and to pass them on for him, but refusing to engage. It's a really unfair thing to do. If you can I'd talk to her and ask her to request being removed as NOK unless she's happy to actually help, if not she needs to let him choose someone else do it.

Greybeardy · 28/09/2024 17:55

Justkeepingplatesspinning · 28/09/2024 16:40

I'm not sure about this situation but as far as the NHS are concerned this man's mother would be the legal next of kin and even if he stated his brother, they'd not override what they rightly or wrongly view as the legal nok.
It's a really difficult situation and if the authorities working with your brother don't view him as having capacity for some reason, they're going to expect to have your mother making decisions for him. I hope it gets resolved for all your sakes.

Show quote history

This is not true - a patient with capacity can chose anyone they like to be NOK. HTH.

ThePure · 28/09/2024 17:55

Next of kin really isn't a legal concept. It can be whoever the person concerned wants it to be. If they were so insistent only to speak to her then that will have come from him and who he has consented to share info with I'm afraid

Nearest relative under the Mental Health Act is a legal concept but unless this is a community treatment order or guardianship following on from a Mental Health Act detention it's hard to see how that applies in the situation you have described

(If it is an MHA nearest relative situation then that cannot be changed on request. The person who is NR ie your mum needs to delegate it)

Original poster
AnotherAdventurePassed · 28/09/2024 17:52

Soontobe60 · 28/09/2024 17:40

If your DB has not given the authorities your details, how do you know all this?

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He can only provide my DGP's details as a form of family contact as its the only information he knows. I know details through them and also because I have been present or answered the phone when the worker have phoned looking for my mother. I also sometimes open his mail, with his permission, if any arrive because he can not read or understand basic instructions in text so would miss appointments/importsnt information if I or someone else didn't do this.

OP posts:
sparkellie · 28/09/2024 17:49

Justkeepingplatesspinning · 28/09/2024 16:40

I'm not sure about this situation but as far as the NHS are concerned this man's mother would be the legal next of kin and even if he stated his brother, they'd not override what they rightly or wrongly view as the legal nok.
It's a really difficult situation and if the authorities working with your brother don't view him as having capacity for some reason, they're going to expect to have your mother making decisions for him. I hope it gets resolved for all your sakes.

Show quote history

Just to say I'm not sure this is true. My partner was in hospital a lot last year and put me down as his next of kin. Legally this is considered to be his parents (who had to deal with his will when he passed away), but the nhs were happy for it to be whoever he nominated.

Original poster
AnotherAdventurePassed · 28/09/2024 17:46

@LittleGreenDragons Thank you for your input, I completely disagree with your view on mothers but you are entitled to your opinion. I have had years of therapy due to the abuse and the later life factors that my childhood caused so i do not need anymore. I do not hate my mother as that would be an emotion that ultimately gives her space in my head which she does not deserve.

But to say a mother, or any parent for that matter, who chose to birth children then neglect, abuse and openly detest them for years is "only human" and "not necessarily at fault" for steering said children's later life choice directions, is in my view a very warped statement. But again thank you for your response, I also hope I can help undamage my brother to a degree before it gets any worse.

OP posts:
Soontobe60 · 28/09/2024 17:44

MoveToParis · 28/09/2024 17:42

Mothers are also human and just because they cannot love or even like their offspring doesn't make them monsters.

…. actually, yes it does.

What if their offspring turn out to be monsters? Many women suffer DV at the hands of their sons. Should they still be expected to love or like them?

MoveToParis · 28/09/2024 17:42

Mothers are also human and just because they cannot love or even like their offspring doesn't make them monsters.

…. actually, yes it does.

Soontobe60 · 28/09/2024 17:40

AnotherAdventurePassed · 28/09/2024 17:00

This doesn't have anything to do with the prison though. He has been living on the streets for 3 years when he hasn't been in prison and it was agreed by police, probation etc, who exactly i do not know, that upon his release he would finally have accommodation so he could be safe and to hopefully reduce his risk of reoffending, aswell as other factors.

Show quote history

If your DB has not given the authorities your details, how do you know all this?

Original poster
AnotherAdventurePassed · 28/09/2024 17:36

I understand that the best avenue to go down is to contact the worker myself and just state all these concerns to see if its possible to get another family member to step in to be an advocate for him. I do need some more information on what they are looking for NOK involvement to be.

I'm not sure what exactly the logistics are and I just want to paint a clearer picture for him to get the right support and to hopefully give him the tools that set him onto the right path. However that process for family involvement would possibly need to be clear from their side too because there is some barriers that may prevent how intensive my responsibility can be for him.

OP posts:
LittleGreenDragons · 28/09/2024 17:34

I can feel the hatred of your mother through your posts. I highly recommend you seek counselling for it as this could ruin your life.

Mothers are also human and just because they cannot love or even like their offspring doesn't make them monsters. You need to let all these emotions go. I'm sorry she couldn't be how you want her to be, but this doesn't necessarily make her at fault. Sometimes things just "are".

I hope you manage to get your brother to make you NoK. Then you can all hopefully live in peace going forward. Good luck.

x2boys · 28/09/2024 17:28

I dont think there is a legal next of kin but be aware of your brother has mental health issues if he was ever detained under the the mental health act there is something called nearest relative ,and this has very strict guidelines ,that have to be followed , a nearest relative can be removed but only by going to court.

Original poster
AnotherAdventurePassed · 28/09/2024 17:23

The restraining order process was because he (wrongly) put a garden chair through her kitchen window. However the event of that sketchy. She goaded him, threatened him and got a male friend to come and "kick his head in" because she refused to give him his bank card to be able to travel to court. To be clear im just stating the facts there not making excuses.

The order to banish him from her life isn't a new or only reason she's now disowning him. She's has such contempt for both of us in her life since we were born. It's just another step to show she that and to make it all about her. Everyone should feel sorry for her and not her son.

OP posts:
2Old2Tango · 28/09/2024 17:22

If you're not allowed direct contact then could you contact the worker and explain your DM wants no involvement but you're happy to be involved if your DB would consider naming you as NOK instead? Surely it's in their interest to get this sorted.

LittleGreenDragons · 28/09/2024 17:04

Mother is in the process of obtaining a restraining order against DB.
What happened here? I suspect this is the reason she no longer wants him in her life.

Get your brother to nominate you as NoK. Get him to make you his financial and medical Power of Attorney.

C152 · 28/09/2024 17:04

What would they do if he literally had no next of kin? Would they let your DB nominate someone else in that circumstance? If your mother genuinely wants nothing to do with your DB or his situation, then perhaps it will just take a letter from her stating she has/is in the process of obtaining a restraining order against him and will not have anything to do with him. Maybe that will then open the door for you to be the nominated next of kin.

Original poster
AnotherAdventurePassed · 28/09/2024 17:00

ChristmasFluff · 28/09/2024 16:52

There is no official NOK involved in these post-release situations. They simply contact the person that the ex-prisoner wants them to.

You need to talk to your brother.

This doesn't have anything to do with the prison though. He has been living on the streets for 3 years when he hasn't been in prison and it was agreed by police, probation etc, who exactly i do not know, that upon his release he would finally have accommodation so he could be safe and to hopefully reduce his risk of reoffending, aswell as other factors.

OP posts:
Original poster
AnotherAdventurePassed · 28/09/2024 16:56

The sad thing is that I don't think professionals actually understand his lack of capacity because he's never had proper investigations into things for diagnosis etc and my mother has led people to believe he is just thick and a waster. For example, he has had a speech impedance since he could talk, he used to stutter badly and was unable to pronounce words properly to the point where you couldn't even understand a sentence. She never got this looked at or even helped him, she'd even ignore referrals to SALT from schools. Whilst the stutter improved, still to this day unless you know his speech or really listen to him it's still hard to understand him. For years ive heard numerous people (including my mother) refer to him as "just a thicko who can't even talk properly".

He's ultimately now is just labelled difficult and a general waste of space rather than him being so neglected he can barely speak, read or write that people may think actually maybe his ability to advocate for himself is questionable to the point he needs good support.

OP posts:
ChristmasFluff · 28/09/2024 16:52

There is no official NOK involved in these post-release situations. They simply contact the person that the ex-prisoner wants them to.

You need to talk to your brother.

EsmeSusanOgg · 28/09/2024 16:48

You need to ask for a medical power of attorney. You can also your mum, if she wants to have nothing to do with him, if she would support you taking legal steps to have medical power of attorney. Especially if you think he is not capable of having this discussion himself.