Excluded from grandchildren's life

The more I think about this the more I think the DiL is very brave indeed.

"LETS her do it"?!?!

Quite a pattern here of assuming anything you don't like is down to the dastardly DIL and not your son - on all of it, not just the travel. It might be time to face up to the fact that husband and wife may well actually be in total agreement on everything, including how they relate to you - and to do some work on your own internalised misogyny.

"We expressed concern that the relationship may not be built on honest motives, due to her age and back ground" - this is pretty much the grenade the previous poster was talking about. It was poor judgement on so many levels - you didn't know her or anything about her background, and you are basically telling your DS that you do not trust his judgement - both of these things would have been very destructive to future relations. Did you say this before or after the wedding? It is a sad situation and one you could turn around, but you do need to see that a fair bit of work will need to be done on your side. It doesn't sound as though you understand what is going on in Ukraine very well either - most of the damage and risk is in eastern Ukraine. The attacks in Kyiv are higher profile, more reported on in the west, but the situation there is completely different from in eastern Ukraine. It is clearly really important for the mother to ensure her children knows their family and culture. It is worth you asking to see your DS on his own, say you are very sorry and you want to start from zero, please, ask him to explain everything from his point of view and his wife's point of view, and find out their perspective on Ukraine, then promise to reflect on it all.

Why did your son move so far away from you in the first place OP?

A PP, too long to quote, from a few pages back. This is the first half of it.

I think you're being given a hard time here, but then again, this is MN, where MIL's are the spawn of the devil.

I'd bet my hat, that not one of the keyboard warrier's on this thread would take their kids to Ukraine tomorrow. And furthermore, if they had adult DC who said they were going, they would urge them not to.

Not inviting parents to a wedding is unforgivable, barring an abusive upbringing.

The first of these three comments is merely childish. I've read plenty of threads on MN on which mothers-in-law have been supported. It also needs to be borne in mind that the usual 'we don't know what we've done' schtick is wearing thin by now. People generally know; the question of whether to remain in denial is the problem many of them are addressing. In doing so, they're often seeking affirmation of their own position and are rarely open to considering the alternative. Added to this is a further problem: a breakdown of relations between families is always the daughters-in-laws' fault. A woman is to blame, despite the fact that men are not so easily brainwashed and sons have autonomy over their own decisions. And even this underlying misogyny can be revealing of why the relationship broke down in the first place.

The 'hating all MiLs' protestations, as above, tend to come from those who are quite rigid in their thinking and unwilling to examine these issues. This point is a nice segue into the statement that 'not inviting parents to a wedding is unforgiveable'. This is a precise example of the kind of attitude I'm talking about. An issue as trivial as a wedding almost never falls into the category of 'unforgivable'. They are not important enough to justify the amount of angst they cause within families, and the statement made by the PP clearly indicates that their offspring should have the style of wedding they deem appropriate: the identikit, stickler-for-tradition, greatly expensive brand of wedding that's become a form of social expectation.

For what? Some couples might prefer to save their money for something less ephemeral and more meaningful. Others prefer something smaller, less conventional and less tedious. For some couples, a big event might be the stuff of nightmares and still others might be trying to navigate difficult family situations to avoid having the whole shebang ruined. In all scenarios, does this really justify an insurmountable family division? I'd say not.

This particular post also made reference to 'abuse' being the only scenario that lets these adult offspring off the hook. This is taking quite a lot upon yourself in judging what other adults are and are not allowed to do at their own family event. Some forms of abuse are subtle. You don't get to qualify that definition on behalf of other people.

This site is desperately in need of more nuance.

Your son has quite clearly told you why you don’t have a good relationship with the family unit - he sees you as parents who would be judgemental and unsupportive of his marriage. It doesn’t matter if you have good intentions - if you want to fix the outcome of your behaviour (not seeing your grandchildren) then you need to change the cause. You can only fix the cause by changing how you engage with him, her and the grandchildren - I’d start by being open saying something like “we know we’ve not helped our relationship with you and your family through our attitude and the way we’ve focused on our concerns and how this makes us feel, without understanding your and your wife’s feelings and we want to change that. We may not get it completely right going forward but we genuinely want to change the dynamic and accept that it is up to us to prove this to you guys. If there is any specific suggestions you have that we can change to help with this please let us know.” What will not help will be constantly telling them how well intentioned you are - they probably know that as they are still seeing you, just not as much as you would like.

It’s also very easy to blame an outside influence because a loved one isn’t doing what you think they should/you want them to do.

Nothing OP has said suggests he’s been controlled by his wife. What she’s said actually points to them not being interested in being controlled, and keeping their distance from someone who considers themselves entitled to have a deciding say over their lives. Op not seeing her son very much predates him meeting his wife by years.

”This happens every time. We have had some big fall outs over decisions they make”

If control is an issue in this situation, it’s because OP doesn’t have it. They’ve distanced themselves because she insists on creating arguments by pushing her unwanted opinions over things she doesn’t get a say in. They don’t want to be around someone that, ironically, doesn’t respect their ability and right to make their own decisions? No shit!

This would horrify me. You see your sons every day, and their families every week for dinner? I’d definitely have moved far away.

OP, you sound horribly judgemental. Golden rule: get on with your DIL, even superficially, or be prepared to see less of the grandchildren.

My MIL is awful to me; luckily we only see them when we travel down to their country. This summer, my DH was away for 4 days. During that time, I had a break and didn’t see her or take my DS to see her (otherwise it was daily when DH was there). She complained and made snarky comments, but I think it actually hit her for the first time that without DH, she and I have no relationship and neither does my son with her (I won’t stand for her being rude to me in front of him; she started on me and we left immediately).

We have had some big fall outs over decisions they make

This kind of says it all for me.

It's not your place to have 'big fall outs' over their decisions for their family and dc. It's not a two way argument where you get equal say. You don't get ANY say but you seem to feel differently.

Until you realise this and back off, your relationship is unlikely to improve imo.

It’s definitely a thing and in fact I have seen plenty of posts on here where ops complain about their mil and people respond “you have a DH problem” to the effect that he ought to be sorting the mil out. So the dynamic of a DH actively getting involved / changing his actions because of the dil/mil dynamic is not unheard of at all - and in fact positively advocated on here at times.

It is possible, of course. I lived through it. My ex started off trying (and succeeded, in some cases) to turn me against others in my life to isolate me, amongst other horrible things he did to me, for example.
what we have here, tho, is an OP who’s clearly overbearing and who cast doubt on the integrity of her son’s wife in a very serious way, including that she couldn’t possibly be into her son unless she wanted money and a UK visa, which also says something about what she thinks of her own son (and is not afraid to say).

based on what we’ve read here, which one is more likely? That her own son doesn’t want a close relationship or that the DIL is forcing this distance through coercive control?

As in, this isn’t real, it’s something the OP wrote here to goad people? Possible, but it’s also possible that it’s real, some people really are like that and don’t see how they could be wrong

Well, I do believe that some men just go along with what their wives want because I have seen it. My own brother for example. The OP could be describing my sister in law.

Thing is, if the wife doesn't want to see the OP, that's one thing. But OP doesn't see her son much either.

My daughter was subject to coercive control by her ex boyfriend and it is a real thing. I am surprised you seem to think it is not.

Do you think people have read a story somehwere and then put it out there? For fun?

Have a feeling the OP won’t be back

I don't think you understand that you are being offensive and that saying offensive things is not just cancelled out and forgiven or forgotten because of an apology. You seem oblivious to the harm that you've done and that you're facing the expected consequences of your actions. You're also defiant on here and seem impervious to feedback.

Dil gets the blame for a man who already knew his family wouldn’t approve of her before they had even met her. They are low contact but it’s her fault??? What for merely existing? Since the son already knew they wouldn’t approve (spoiler they did not approve) so he didn’t invite them to his own wedding.

Never the mils fault never the son’s fault. Always the dils fault in the nightmare mil 101 book.

The dil you’ve barely ever met that you judged without meeting too.

As soon as all is well in Ukraine you know they will move back right 😅 hell loads of families chose not to leave at all.

The fact that your son didn't invite his family to the wedding speaks volumes. The issues were already there before his wife came along. There's alot to address here but start with honest soul searching.

you clearly disliked (and dislike) her, don't approve of the relationship. You made your bed! I wonder what DS and DIL would have to say about it.

you posts are just dripping with judgement. I wouldn't want you hugely involved in my life in that case too.

I'm sure the children see the trip on the train as an adventure.

Your comment of "not fair in the children at all" is probably one of the many reasons why they make little effort to see you.

Stop judging.

I know your intentions are well meant but they come across very badly.

I all honesty, it sounds like you have form for overstepping your sons boundaries in giving your opinions even not wanted. Maybe try talking to him when they're away and see if you can straighten things out and lead on a better footing

I’m proud of your son, OP. You sound like a nightmare parent, mainly as you can’t see your own faults.

He thinks you’re racist/xenophobic due to your pointed comments. It strikes me that you think she is beneath your family.

You think she poisoned him against you, without realising your son withdrew contact with you long before that. It’s not her that “clearly has no respect for family” - your son has obviously indicated he wants less contact with you. If anything, she comes across like she values family considering how often she visits hers.

What’s relevant here is how your son grew up and how he really feels about you, because your own posts indicate he feels you and the rest of your side of the family are judgemental. Yet you seem to be pinning it all on the woman. It’s like you can’t possibly consider that your son is the one that doesn’t want much to do with you, and that stems from your actions. He didn’t invite you to his wedding. He didn’t even tell you he was getting married. He didn’t want you there. He didn’t see you as someone worth sharing his happiness with. That speaks volumes.

The fact you haven’t realised that and have proceeded to have big fall outs with him over his decisions and show up uninvited is beyond comprehension. He comes across like he’s protecting his kids from you.

and you’re just projecting

Doubt it.

son and DIL are right to stay away.

‘You suspect’? Based on what? Your belief that men lack agency and that, if not controlled by their mothers, must be controlled by their wives? So many posters ready to infantilize this man as if he hasn’t been keeping his mother and family at arms length for years before he even met his wife.

They’re not interested in subjecting themselves to someone that wants to argue about their decisions. It’s really very simple. If OP insists on voicing her unwanted opinions they’ll end up even more estranged than they already her. She can either suck it up and respect the fact that her approval of their choices isn’t necessary, or she can carry on as she is and not see and/or speak to them at all. Up to her.