Excluded from grandchildren's life

So when you say "at a cost to the West that is just a rounding error in our collective defence budget, with Ukrainian rather than allied lives being lost" are you saying that the Ukrainian government is aware of this?

My MIL found it very difficult to let her son go when he married me. She turned up uninvited at our house many times and even moved in when we were away on holiday. Turning up without an invitation shows a totally unwarranted sense of entitlement and in my case caused still unresolved issues in my marriage. So just don't do it.

can you tell me more about what you say about the country being on the point of collapse?

I didn't (I think) say that Ukraine was or is on the point of collapse. My point is that if it looked like Russia was going to complete a military/puppet government takeover of Ukraine, a very large number of Ukrainians would surely flee westwards, fearing rape and murder at the hands of Russian troops. The fact that they haven't, and in particular that so many have returned since the spring of 2022, suggests that they don't expect that to happen.

you are saying that Ukraine is being used by the west to weaken Russia?

De facto, yes. Russia started the war, but basically what's happening now is that Ukraine is sapping Russia's military strength at a cost to the West that is just a rounding error in our collective defence budget, with Ukrainian rather than allied lives being lost.

NATO doesn't want to get involved in a shooting war, but it has a big interest in Russia being unable to envisage causing trouble in, say, Latvia. I say this in what I hope is a totally non-conspiratorial way; it's a fact that Russia has lost an enormous amount of equipment, and the deficiencies of their weapons systems and general military organisation have been exposed by the war. I don't know whether Western leaders sit around cackling at how clever they are getting Ukraine to do all the hard work, I actually rather doubt it, but hopefully Putin will realise that if he has got a bloody nose at the hands of a country with no navy and close to no air force, he would get absolutely slaughtered if he took on NATO.

@samarrange i know this isn't the point of the thread, but some of your comments here grabbed my eye. When you say "In fact one of the reasons the West is supporting Ukraine, apart from the obvious issues of morality and the strategic need to weaken Russia, is because if it looked like the country was about to collapse" can you tell me more about what you say about the country being on the point of collapse? The bit about the need to weaken Russia sounds interesting too - you are saying that Ukraine is being used by the west to weaken Russia?

My guess is OP hada vision and expectation that all her adult kids would be around her along with grandchildren and her son had his own plans about his future and she cannot accept that.

Her son chose to move 1,000 miles away to another country. Her son chose to marry a citizen there despite her opinions and reservations. Herson knew how she would be and react so to save him and his bride the stress and his mother’s judgments, he didn’t invite her. It’s easier to blame her DIL than to admit to herself her son doesn’t want to be around her and their family and I highly don’t she doesn’t know why, but if she actually doesn’t, I bet others around do or have an inkling.

‘Should’ doesn’t come into it - that’s a decision for the parents to make. The children may or may not take issue with this later, and that holds true for any decision a parent makes on their behalf as dependent children.

One could also suggest:

Should the children have rights about who they want to see?

What if the children in this case want to see their grandmother?

Shouldn't they have rights?

It doesn’t matter what anyone here may or may not feel - it isn’t up to anyone but the parents. That isn’t a matter of opinion, it’s a fact.

Op can either respect their decisions and have a chance of a relationship with them all, or she can can keep arguing with thin air (because they’re not going to make themselves available to hear it).

That's very sad.

Can I just say that I understand your heartbreak. I know you want to see your grandchildren.

My mother also stopped me from seeing my grandmother, (my father's mother) for long periods of time.

My mum moved very, very far away from my gran when i was 7, and I remember missing my grandmother really terribly. I thought about her a lot, but I wasn't allowed to see her at all

When I was 18 (11 years later) and I was an adult, I went to see my grandmother myself.

We cried and hugged each other and she said to me "I never forgot you ever". She kept crying and saying to me "I never forgot you". I remember that she cried so much. She ketp crying.

She said to me that she'd been afraid of my mother, and that she didn't know what to do without making the situation worse.

My granny died not long after my visit. So I only got to see her a couple of times when I was 18. Then she died.

I missed out on a lifetime with her. That was an entire relationship ruined.

It's really hard because mothers have all the power.

Children have no power, and grandparents have no power.

I think that they should make more grandparents rights.

Sounds like you have a problem with the wife, not the other way around. “she clearly has no respect for our family”? But it is your son who would be responsible for inviting you to their wedding, not her, so why are you judging her? And who are you to “voice your concerns” over her returning to her country with her children? She is their mother. Nobody in the world will be as conscious of their safety as she. You might be uncomfortable based on your lack of understanding and knowledge of the situation and all factors involved, but it is not your place to stick your oar in. No wonder they try to keep their distance if this is what you’re like. Try showing some respect and maybe relationships will improve.

I'm a nana to 5. I'm also a MiL to 3 of my adult youngsters. I have 3 adult sons and 1 adult daughter.

Posts like yours are one of the many reasons I closed my gransnet account.

Judgementaliam, holy than thou and all the other reasons P.I.L's are not in their grandchildrens life etc stand out so well in this post.

What were your own PiL's like with you? How would you have liked it if your inlaws had behaved like you do.

Your vocal opinions are why your relationship is like it is. I can hear you now and it makes me shudder.

My ex deceased MiL was a nightmare but some of the stories I read on MiL's make her seem like a pussy cat.

Fortunately I had a wonderful 2nd MiL who I still miss very much.

It's probably too late with this relationship however inlaws should keep their mouths shut and just grumble to each other as in mom in law and dad in law, between themselves.

You started this with your accusations about why they were together. Just because you apologised doesn't make it right. You set them up to be defensive from the beginning.

I have a good relationship with my DiLs because I keep my mouth shut and I let them live their lives.

They will always be closer to there mom's cos that is how it is. I am close to my daughter and it is very different when I'm with her because that's how the mom/daughter relationship works.

I see all of my grandchildren regularly and I am involved in childcare as well with my eldest son and my DiL children because they live locally.

When I visit my daughter and her family whom I'm in weekly contact with via video call etc. it is very different because she is my daughter.

Incidentally there is a 7 year age gap between my eldest and his wife. 2 of my adult youngsters are with people of other race/country. I'm just glad they are happy and they are in loving good relationships.

I doubt you can save this without some hard soul searching about yourselves.

I'm guessing most of those telling you it's none of your business, etc., are Mums who are not yet grandmothers. They will no doubt feel differently when they have grandchildren

I've learned so much on MN that I am storing away for the future. So much about how NOT to act and about how not to be that grandparent or MIL from hell.

I do wish parents would try to understand how much love and how much of a bond we feel for our grandchildren, and how much it hurts to be cut out of their lives

This cuts both ways. I think there are plenty of grandparents who would be wise to think back and remember what it was like raising children. How busy you are, how many worries and concerns of your own you have. And how much you really DON'T need the stress and noise of a background voice bip bip bipping away with constant unasked for advice and opinions on your children and life.

Why not ask your DS if you can come to London and take them all out somewhere for the day?

I am shocked at the hostility of some of the responses you are receiving. I'm guessing most of those telling you it's none of your business, etc., are Mums who are not yet grandmothers. They will no doubt feel differently when they have grandchildren.
I, for one, feel very sorry for you. To have your son shut you out of his life like this is so hurtful and unpleasant. To refuse you any access to your grandchildren is spiteful and mean.

If there has been a fallout with your son which led to him not inviting you to his wedding, then you need to repair that relationship I think. Be the bigger person. If you have hurt him/them in some way then apologise, and try to make a fresh start.

If there has been no fallout then I do think you son needs to man up and stand up to his wife. His family is just as important as hers in their children's lives. Do they even see his brothers and their children? Somehow I think you need to have a heart-to-heart with your son and try to get to the bottom of it.

Maybe he could try and imagine what it's like to be in your shoes. The years fly by and one day his own children will be grown up, getting married and having their own kids. I do wish parents would try to understand how much love and how much of a bond we feel for our grandchildren, and how much it hurts to be cut out of their lives.

I wish you well.

That's not your decision to make. You say you've had several big bust ups over this. You clearly didn't get the message after the first one and you persist with your interfering. How do you expect them to respond? As much as you love them, they are not your children and it's not your place to interfere with how you son and DiL parent their children. You'd be better off wishing them a good trip and saying you look forward to hearing all about it when they get back.

U obviously have no idea his u come across no wonder they keep away from u.

No, grandparents don’t have those inherent rights.

And that isn’t what freedom of speech means. Freedom of speech protects individuals from government censure, it doesn’t mean that people have to avail themselves to listen to you.

She is free to think that a much as she likes, but she doesn’t get a say in it, and they’re not interested in hearing her repeated criticisms of their parenting decisions. Or marital decisions. Or hosting decisions. Or housing decisions. Interfering as she is isn’t going to achieve anything but further estrangement.

So yes, she’s allowed her opinions, but equally they’re allowed to not entertain them, or her. Clearly she doesn’t like the consequences of arguing over things she gets no say in though.

'Grandparents have rights, legal rights to have contact with the GC'

No they don't, except for circumstances where they have been raising their grandchildren or otherwise playing a very significant role in their lives. Which the OP hasn't been doing.

OP I think based solely on what you've said, you're getting a hard time here.
(And I say that as someone who is no contact with my husbands parents, and they haven't seen our children for 2 years)

UNLESS there is a back story here other than what you're telling us from your son's side of things, I do think your issues sound mostly warranted.

I don't think long haul (especially regular) journeys are fair on young kids, whatever the 'your kids should fit around your life' brigade say... and they certainly shouldn't be visiting dangerous countries.
You are still these children's close blood relative....you are allowed to be concerned for them.

Quite a few people are rude with their comments. As a grandparent myself, of course yoyr going to feel concerned about them travelling to a worn torn country, if she didn't care she wouldn't be a very nice person.
I think it is odd that her family weren't invited to their sons wedding, but times have changed and I suppose it's only like running off to Gretna green.
To me, and this is my opinion, she just sounds like any normal parent wanting to be part of her child's/ grandchild's life.
If she doesn't get in with the daughter in law, that would be an issue in anyone's marriage. Grandparents have rights, legal rights to have contact with the GC, however, this will be another strain to their already fragile relationship.
To be honest I think she'll be buggered if she fights to see her GC or not. If you don't you'll get it throw in her face she didn't bother. And if she does, then she'll be told that's she's interfering in something g hey don't want. ENGLAND has a freedom of speech policy, and no one can talk without being obnoxious or arrogant. I wish you well whatever you decide to do.

You weren't in the loop at the start of his relationship for a reason. Your son is protecting his family from the difficult relationship in his life.

The reason why I rub along with my DIL is because I keep my mouth shut and respect boundaries. We will never be close but I know she has told people I am a good MIL . Compared to what her friends put up with 😂 My DIL will always put her mother first , but there is nothing I can do about that as they have an unbreakable bond . I know this is going to sting like hell but I would apologise, recognise that your DIL is a great mother and start again .

@GrandmDEA

Wondering if you've learnt anything or have given any consideration to the 'opposite viewpoints' in this thread.

Sounds as if your relationship with your son may be hanging in the balance. It may be time to rethink things.

This says it all and I talk from experience