Excluded from grandchildren's life

Parents will generally do what is best for the children, if they think that someone is going to cause emotional or mental health problems for a child because of their behaviour, they will not allow contact. This is normal. If grandparents behave appallingly, parents may well cut off contact. When adult children do not want contact with their parent there are usually good reasons why. Though it is possible that the adult child has been manipulated.

I am not saying that this applies to your situation or the OP's situation, but generally speaking it is children who have rights in law, and aside from that parents will want to protect their children from harm. In your situation it does sound very sad - but have you ever tried to talk to your mother as to why she made that decision? It sounds as though the relationship between your mother and your grandmother was not good and it might be helpful for you to find out why? I couldn't say simply from your post, but it may be that your mother was making decisions which harmed you, or she was making decisions to prevent harm being caused to you?

Aww op gm here, feel your sadness, your son for some reason decided not to involve his family at his wedding that being two brothers and there families, so this is a problem your son had with family, why you may never get to know but then how can you make things better if you don't know, you haven't been able to build relationships with DIL due to this decision he made, how are your other sons with him?,
Can you start to build a bridge with him first, no questions just simple, how are you, doing anything nice at weekend, see how that goes, build a rode with him and in time the dil, basically what am trying to say is, if he could of said to you all, why your not invited to wedding let people talk and clear the air I don't know but surely better to allow you and other sons to make changes in how you all treat and respect each other's wishes, good luck in the future,

You say "Of course they are" - you are saying that Ukraine is agreeing to the loss of life of Ukrainians for the benefit of "the west"? Could you explain this a bit more?
Weltpolitik/Realpolitik could be said to apply to "west" ideology I guess, but I am not sure how it applies to Ukraine's stance?

That's what I meant. There are some rights but they don't apply in this situation

I don’t think I op is likely to have any extraordinary rights: I’m not sure she has really even met them much from the sound of it

This is a very sad story and I feel really sorry for you OP. However, having said this I agree with the narrative in terms of the majority of the responses posted, unfortunately. It sounds like the situation is of your own making and it is even sadder you cannot see this.

My advice, if you want a relationship with your grandchildren, which you clearly do, there is a lot of humble pie to be eaten.

It sounds like money is not too much of an issue so I would speak to your son and daughter-in-law. Arrange a time you can travel to see them and book in to a hotel close by. I would then spend time taking with your son and daughter-in-law together, tell them you realise you have been wrong and judgemental in the past but you want to move forward having a relationship with them all.

Sometimes you have to leave past hurts in the past for the sake of the now and the future.

As long as you get the outcome you want, which is better relationships and harmony, it doesn't matter what you have to do and say to get it. You are going to have to suck it up and you are going to have to change, only you know if you can do so but I am sending lots of positive energy and the sincere hope you can.

Actually I think you can get rights to gc as a gp now - but it has to be in a situation where you've basically brought them up single handed for an extended period, then they go back to parents.

If there has been no fallout then I do think you son needs to man up and stand up to his wife.

This issue is very clearly between OP and her son. Sons have autonomy over their own decision-making and are in possession of minds and wits of their own. There is no need to 'stand up' to his wife. It's her decision to take her family to visit her own relatives. It would be for him to decide whether to do the same for his.

It could well be the case that the son himself has taken umbridge at the rather insulting assumptions his mother has made about his wife. Rather than leaping to the conclusion that a devious, manipulative woman is somehow 'keeping him away' from his family of origin against his will, it would be fair to assume that this is his own response.

Interesting how the default assumption is always that a woman must be to blame.

No they don’t have rights.

They do, however, or should, have a degree of emotional investment and to some extent I think many of the comments on this thread about op “ having opinions” on how they should fo things probably have come from people who have not yet had gc. I haven’t; but I can tell already that the urge to say things like “ be careful” to my Dc in the grand old tradition of mothers everywhere is a harbinger that I will still feel concern when my Dc are grown - they are just bigger issues. As a child I thought my mum was soooo annoying saying “be careful” ( as if I would be intentionally reckless, 🙄I used to think).

I don’t think op’s instinct to “meddle” in that sense is as grotesquely unnatural as is being made out on this thread. BUT, having said things as comprehensively negative as thd dil is a gold digger ( rather than the more standard fare such as do you think gc might scream inconsolably after milk because he’s lactose intolerant, or similar) I do think op has to be realistic about how they will react. I’m not actually saying op shouldn’t necessarily have said it: it I were genuinely convinced of the same I would probably warn my Dc. However, saying it is a risk we knowingly take. It’s natural for parents to want to try to give their Dc an environment that is as conflict free and positive as possible, so exclusion of grandparents whom they suspect will bring a different vibe to the relationship is a natural defence mechanism. Op has to be realistic about that.

I can't even imagine what you could buy for a 3 or 5 year old that would cost hundreds? At that age they just want colouring books and pencils or a lego set. Much better to ask if they need anything and if not offer cash or vouchers to put towards whatever they need in the next few months.

I recommend this wonderfully connective and practical guide to you OP and to all parents including those with grown children. It really gives a wonderful perspective on how we can heal relationships and reflect on our actions with great compassion.
The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read (And Your Children Will Be Glad You Did) by Phillipa Perry.

Lol at your mother in law moving in. How did that happen?

When I was on my honeymoon my mother brought all my boxes to our house and stacked them up in the living room. When we came back we could hardly get the living room door open. Relations didn't improve from there!

Grandparents have no legal rights in the UK.

I don't think you have to say much for DC to construe a whole lot out of it. My mother can condemn my life choices crushingly with barely a rise of her eyebrow!

You might think you were tactful but if you unpack it, they might have the picture you were saying Ukrainian women are whores and golddiggers, your son doesn't know how to work out if love is genuine or not, and they wilfully put their children at risk of death. Sounds like enough to put me off a Sunday teatime! They might feel that if you visit you'll criticise other things about their household.

Anyway, you've obviously caused offence somehow. If you want things to change you'll need to be prepared to be open minded and listen, say you want a reset and don't be defensive if they say you upset them.

I've had friends from central/eastern Europe and there are so many stereotypes - you can say one thing and they know you're referring to a whole idea of their country that they find offensive.

I'd also start with learning about Ukraine. History, culture, food etc. The area she's from. Start thinking of the cultural element as a positive, not a negative. It's a big country and only a section of it is at risk of bombing, a lot of it has disruption to power etc but not enough to stop you from visiting.

Вибачте, що я був ідіотом. давайте почнемо знову
There's Ukrainian for 'I'm sorry I've been an idiot, let's start again' :)

As a grandma to a 3 and 5 year old myself, it says something to me that you say you've 'spent hundreds' on their birthday presents , as though the cost makes them more important. It doesn't - and may annoy the parents who don't want their kids spoilt : there's probably also a disparity between what you can afford and what the Kyiv family ( or the parents ) can, so a bit of discretion is needed

And that is your choice. There are many who have taken their DC to Australia, NZ, Thailand without issue

YABU: grandparents are not entitled to relationships with grandchildren, especially when the relationship with the adult child is fragile. It is clear your son wanted to distance himself from you for many reasons. Perhaps address that first, make amends, repeatedly show behavior your son can trust you and then maybe you can see the grandchildren more.

Yet know that you are not entitled to a relationship with your son either. It seems you have been meddling in his marriage with your opinions. If he is ok with what his wife does, that is enough. I do not get all of this worrying about grandkids, really, they are not your children.

If your son does not want a relationship, you need to let this go.

I feel strongly about this as I had a meddling f%&)ing parent for years. They could NOT accept my choices and kept badgering me, calling me, fake worrying (as an excuse to stay in contact). I went NC. I have a kid, and ALL OF A SUDDEN they are freaking out, wanting to be included. Well, no, that parent lost the first time around. It is not my responsiblity to make them feel comfortable and included when they disrespected my boundaries for years.

Best thing to do is lead your life, stop meddling and let them come to you if and when they are ready.

@HideousKinky is right here.

It's a good life lesson to always think about how our actions appear to others as it makes us empathetic and able to temper our actions and reactions.

10 years age difference is not that big a gap, and how do you know what her type is? Sounds like you think she's way out of your sons league. Is he unattractive and/or has terrible social skills or something? I mean obviously he's gonna be better off financially due to the stage of life he's at but no wonder he's offended you've basically insinuated she can't possibly really love him...

Wow. You’re blaming your DIL for most of this when it’s your son’s responsibility, (or probably decision) to stay in contact.
She wants to see her family as they are obviously close.
The same bond isn’t there with you and your son and therefore his children.
You sound very opinionated, OP. This obviously hasn’t gone down well with them.

@dennybev1 To quote you

"I am shocked at the hostility of some of the responses you are receiving. I'm guessing most of those telling you it's none of your business, etc., are Mums who are not yet grandmothers. They will no doubt feel differently when they have grandchildren"

You clearly haven't read through, though there are alot of pages so that is understandable.

I am a Nana to 5 who are all in my life. To repeat briefly I keep my own counsel. I do not interfere or give opinions. I have 2 DiLs and 1 SonILaw.

Thus, because I do I have a good relationship with my DiLs and SonILaw as well as the ILaws family.

If you read further through the pages the OP speaks of her DiL further and the open disdain for her DiL even before they married it's not surprising they stay away.

My 1st ex deceased MiL was s nightmare. My 2nd MiL was amazing. I love and miss her dearly.

No. Three- and five-year- old children absolutely should not get to override their parents’ judgements about which adults should be around them and have significant roles in their lives.

@GrandmDEA unfortunately saying you think she's a gold digger undermines so much. It's saying you think your son is thick and stupid, easily manipulated and prone to being a sucker. In addition to that it's saying the woman he loves, doesn't love him either.

Obviously it's also totally insulting to her.

When someone makes these commentary does the son or daughter ever think, true let's dump them?

Lots of deeply unpleasant comments are made under "we care about you banner", like "banter" and bullying in school.

I'm sorry you find yourself with such a family rift and it must be hard not seeing your DGCs.

You say she doesn't respect your family, but your OP also betrays that you also don't respect her. You clearly dislike her, don't approve of the age gap or the country she comes from, which is part of your DGCs' heritage, or her parenting decisions.

Respect cuts both ways, I'm afraid.

Of course they are - it isn’t a new tactic or an uncommon one. It’s realpolitik AND weltpolitik.