Excluded from grandchildren's life

@Nannyoggapple
If you had a grandchild, and someone told you that you could never see that grandchild again.
How would you feel?

A manipulative question there pet. As is your insistence that the courts support grandparental rights, when you know that that isn't necessarily the case. You can't bludgeon reluctant participants in the grandparental situation, you know.

But to answer it I would feel extremely sad indeed. But I'd also be asking what -I- did in this situation. Did I contribute to it? Can I do something to make things better?

Can you see the daughter in law's points at all?

Or do you think that grandparental rights > all?

As far as I'm concerned, people's situations vary, the nature of the grandparents and of the children and grandchildren vary. There isn't a one size fits all rule for all, not at all, for grandparental situations.

But I do know that people are people and acting in a way that openly thinks your DiL is a gold-digger, or being so judgemental that your own son doesn't want you at their wedding, really isn't a wise or sensible way of getting on with people.

If the OP was sensible and sensitive she'd take the advice on here and firstly back off, just email the DiL and ask what sort of presents the children would like and get just that - not too OTT - and then gently try to re-establish some sort of respectful contact, and hope the DiL will give her a chance, and slowly build up bonds with her and the grandchildren. She might never be close with the DiL but mutual respect might work. And an apology somewhere along the line.

Doesn’t matter how much the dil sees or doesn’t the in-laws. The son can and has clearly taken the children to see his parents that’s why they have seen them twice.

But her own son clearly has issue with her and doesn’t want to bother more than he already is.

Maybe rather than hiding her sons choices and being over opinionated she should have just welcomed his new girlfriend back then since she became his wife.

It’s a lesson she should have known. You don’t know which partner your child will pick long term so unless there is genuine reason such as abuse you shut up and smile and be polite. She’s alienated her own son.

I think they have made the right decision for them and for their children.

They don't want to see you no matter how many birthday presents you buy because what you bring to their lives isn't positive.

Your disapproval of everything you do oozes from you. I honey don't think there is any point in pushing to have a relationship with them.

Yeah. One of family memebrs and few frienda voiced their opinion that maybe my DH might be marrying me for papers.
Needless to say, they are not in our lives since then.

This has to be a wind up.

They can only apply to courts if the children have lived with them. There’s no such thing as grandparents’ rights in the UK. In this situation it would also be entirely inappropriate. The grandparents haven’t been prevented from seeing the gc and still aren’t being prevented - they have chosen not to do so

So she's quite attractive and you think she has/had ulterior motive. Perhaps she did, but so did your son.

He got a younger, attractive woman, that he probably couldn't have got in the UK and he knows this.

They not have each other. That's how it works. As long as he's happy let it be.

You have pretty much placed all the blame on her, but your son is the one who excluded you and his brothers from his wedding. He probably knows she wouldn't have been interested in him if he wasn't in his position, but he's made his choice.

I'd take a step back (stop reaching out and giving unsolicited advice) and enjoy the time with the grandchildren that you see.

No. I have a wonderful relationship with my mother in law, actually. And I had a difficult stretch with my father and stepmother in early adulthood, but fortunately they cared enough about the relationship to reflect and make changes when I set boundaries and made it clear their behavior was going to result in my distancing myself. Now we’re close and that feels like the distant past - I sincerely hope OP can follow the same path.

What OP described is low contact. But neither her son or DIL have said this is permanent or irreversible. OP can still choose to take accountability for the hurt she’s caused and make a sincere, lasting change on her end if she wants to repair the relationship. Nothing she has written here says that her son and DIL aren’t willing to let her do that.

You certainly sound as though you are letting your experience as a GP get in the way of your impartiality or acknowledgment of the facts in this particular situation. In fact, are you OP’s best friend?!

I don’t think you are going to find a huge amount of support for your views on this.

Have you been the daughter in law in real life?

You sound like you're letting your own life - affect your posting.

By the way, She hasn't seen her dil since last Christmas, 8 months ago.

That is no contact

She has seen her grandchildren For two days, in an eight month period.

That is extremely low contact.

I haven’t RTFT, just your first post, but it reminded me of my own MIL.

Sadly, when you have adult children, you have to keep your opinions to yourself, especially when they’re negative or likely to cause offence. You have to accept their family are now their immediate unit and their needs come first before anyone else. You can advise of course when asked, but can’t just put out opinions that disapprove as you could come off wrong. You don’t have to agree with everything they do of course, but your job is to support and be there.

Unannounced visits are also not something I’d enjoy and someone judging your life and seeming to expect visits would make me on edge. Nursery/school does take it out of lots of children and if you’re working Monday to Friday, it’s absolutely relentless at times trying to fit in life errands, household tasks and spending quality time with your children yourself, without trying to fit in regular visits with someone who doesn’t make you feel happy or supported.

Our story - we had our first DC and first grandchild in Covid. MIL wanted to come immediately, then also turned up unannounced on someone else’s visit to meet DC so she was getting 2 visits before some family had even had 1. She was asked politely not to hang over DC when they were sleeping in their basket, with her phone inches from their face which resulted in her dramatically storming out of the house.

I had PND as DH was working PC shifts at the time and she’d relentlessly demand his shift pattern to schedule in video calls or turn up unannounced to stand at the window once lockdown got called. As DH wouldn’t agree to a consistent schedule, she stopped talking to us and hasn’t seen first DC since they were a baby. They have never met second DC, despite being in the same room at a family wedding, choosing to ignore us all instead and then tell other family members not to speak to us either.
They’re also not currently speaking to another of their sons, DH’s older brother, as he said he didn’t fancy going on a holiday with her.

This question is irrelevant to OP’s situation. You’re being emotionally manipulative.

OP has not been told she can never see her grandchildren again. He son and DIL have continued to distance their nuclear family from OP in response to persistent judgement and boundary crossing that OP apparently refuses to take accountability for and change. They have not closed the door permanently or gone no contact. If she values seeing her grandchildren, she should apologize for her behavior and change it moving forward.

If you had a grandchild, and someone told you that you could never see that grandchild again.

How would you feel?

I never said the grandmother in UKraine shouldn't see her grandchildren.

I said it's bad to bring the grandchildren to a country with an active war.

There are a lot of travel warnings out there advising people not to travel to Ukraine.

You said "only a fraction of it is a war zone"

The point is , that the fraction is always moving.

No one ever attacks a country and says, "we'll only attack this little part of it for years", do they?

War fronts and war zones move as the war progresses.

I was talking to a Ukranian refugee.

She told me that she was living in one town in Ukraine. Missiles atracks were aimed at that town

Then she moved to another town in Ukraine, to be safe, but then Russia also aimed missile attacks at that town.

She told me that she then came to the UK to "save herself from the missiles".

Soooo. It's awful if the grandmother in the UK can't see her grandchilden, no matter just how unpleasant she is to her daughter in law, but the grandmother in Ukraine shouldn't see her grandchildren?

Yes there's a war on but there are an awful lot of people who live perfectly well in Kyiv, with adjustments. Further East is a different matter, but West is less dangerous. You can get run over crossing the road, more likely.

You can't have it both ways!

I assume your justification of the OP's position comes from your own experience (perhaps wrongly, but it does seem that way). But honestly, no one can really expect a mother to want her kids to have much to do with a grandmother who thinks she's a gold digger, is highly judgemental and turns up unexpectedly and uninvited after stepping on her DiL's toes heavily. The fact the father in this also keeps his distance (not inviting her to the wedding has to have had something to do with this!) indicates it's not just the mother. Maybe the father also wants the children to grow up with the experience of loving grandparents rather than judgemental and heavily tactless ones!

"Ukraine is a large country".

I know. I visited Ukraine, before the current war.

I'm sure that most people are aware that it is a large country.

Poorly informed?

I volunteered with Ukranian refugees for a long time. They were in telephone contact with people back home.

I'm well aware of how bad the situation is there.

This sort of judgmental, poorly informed comment is likely why OP’s son and DIL have rightly distanced their family from OP.

All parents make decisions about acceptable risks for their children. When you strap your child into a car to take them to the store or visit a relative across town you are risking their life. Anyone who says you just don’t care about their safety for doing so is an ass. Ukraine is a large country - the size of France - and only a fraction of it is an active war zone; tens of millions of people are living there, going about their lives.

Then neither is the father. He has gone with his wife with their children to see her family some of the times they visit and doesn’t have a problem with his wife visiting alone with the children it seems. His wife going alone may need his permission to travel there. I know I had to have a consent letter just in case when travelling without DH and even more so since DCs and I have different passports.
.

My DH and I are from different countries and he has a lovely relationship with his parents. He has lived away from them since before we met. He talks to them several times a week and even when we lived in the States, he would fly back for Christmas. When we were engaged, and I brought up eloping, he said as long as his parents and siblings were there, he was happy to do so. His parents also know he has his own mind, has always done his own thing so can’t be forced or controlled to do anything he doesn’t want to.

He also isn’t afraid to tell them bluntly to drop an issue or say something that makes them do so. He has shut his mum down on certain topics involving our children that he didn’t tell me until years later because he didn’t see it as important to tell me and/or it was something we as a couple discussed and agreed on that it didn’t matter what she said or what her opinion was and she never brought it up with me herself.

Her son said why he didn’t invite her to his wedding and from what she has written about his wife, I can’t say I blame him. Instead of blaming his wife, OP should be looking at her own behaviour and how it is making her son not want to bring his children around her or have her come by. I doubt her feelings about his wife are well hidden as she says and thinks.

Families are still living there or are they all horrible parents/grandparents/aunts and uncles.

I’m going to guess she knows her home land much better than you or me. Her family are living there and funnily enough clearly still alive to be visited.

We just get what’s shown in the press.

Where as her mother in law who was doubting and questing her behind her back to her now husband chooses not to visit his parents in the U.K. speaks volumes really doesn’t it to how the son thinks of his own parents compared to the love the dil clearly has for her family.

The mother who is bringing the children to a country that has an ongoing war,

isn't really caring for their safety, is she

I would assume that’s because the other grandparents probably didn’t suggest their daughter was a gold-digger and the son was a chump who the wife must only want for his money and citizenship or continue to criticize their parenting and care for the children’s safety over the intervening years.

Sometimes though when you have difficult parents or in-laws, it's protecting your kids, not punishing them. If the OP in this case is negative about their mum, or even possibly prejudiced or racist about their mother's country of origin, which is also her grandkids' heritage, that's not nice for kids to be around. And OP in this case seems to feel she is justified in her beliefs, and has not apologised for expressing such prejudice to her son about her age and nationality. Building bridges goes both ways.

My MIL is difficult in many ways. DH has chosen a low contact relationship with her, and had before we met. I've always got the blame for her not having more of a relationship with our DC, but in fact I did encourage him to try a bit more with her in the first few years and especially when we had DS1. But over the years I've seen how she is, and have respected DH's preference for LC. It annoys me how the wife always gets the blame when there's a rift with the in-laws. It's rare IMO for all the blame for a rupture to be on only one set of shoulders.

I didn't mean "all the time" literally.

Maybe "more time" would be more accurate to say.

OP has said that the grandchildren saw their maternal grandparents for a couple of weeks this year so far,

But that she has only seen them for two days, this whole year.

How are the other grandparents seeing them all the time? They live in a different country 😅