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Child identifies as a wolf ... WTF?

636 replies

Portakalkedi · 27/09/2024 12:15

Just on Radio 4 now, discussing a child in secondary school who identifies as a wolf, and the school is going along with this. AIBU to think the world (or at least the UK) has gone mad? If said child is living in the woods, catching its own prey etc etc, howling and running with other wolves, which I doubt, then why the hell is anyone going along with it? They are also saying that some others identify as dogs or cats etc. And here was me thinking men 'identifying' as women was bad.

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BonfireLady · 29/09/2024 12:23

Whammyammy · 29/09/2024 12:11

Parents pandering to their Therian kids are just giving them MH problems.

They're not furry animals, theyre human children.

A line needs to be drawn under thus crap

Yes.... however....

The distress that these children feel is real.

Where is the line on "pandering"? How can this be approached compassionately without risking the child feeling unheard or being persuaded by communities online that their parents mean them harm if they don't recognise their identity.

Should children be allowed to identify as the opposite sex (or non-binary) but not as wolves? What's the difference?

Whammyammy · 29/09/2024 12:11

Parents pandering to their Therian kids are just giving them MH problems.

They're not furry animals, theyre human children.

A line needs to be drawn under thus crap

BonfireLady · 29/09/2024 11:44

Have a look at my post at 10.05 for information regarding professional dangerousness - when adults dabble in mental health issues with no qualifications.

Exactly this.

Many people on this thread are saying that a child who believes they are a different species (therian identity) is likely to be suffering from underlying mental health issues and a child who identifes as a furry is at risk of being pulled towards a community where the lines between fetish and innocent fun aren't always clear.

However, common sense seems to fly out of the window when we start talking about those same risks in relation to gender identity. It's like there's an unwritten rule that some beliefs (god, gender identity) can be fact and others (species identity, trans racial, trans age) must always be "nonsense". To propagate this, trans rights activists jump in to bring conflation and confusion: Section 28, DSDs and so on.

Anyone who raises concerns about this conflation is shamed as a transphobe - at this point you've got 3 choices:

  1. to go all in and learn about why these conflations are unhelpful (my post at 9.28 is an example of how much I needed to learn about DSDs to unpick this particular issue)
  2. walk away ("it doesn't affect me", "live and let live")
  3. champion some of it but not all e.g. "I won't accept people like Isla Bryson in women's prisons or children identifying as wolves, but transwomen are women"

Anyone choosing option 3 has to tread a very difficult path. Yes, you can slam people down as transphobic but unless you end up picking option 2, you'll eventually end up being called transphobic yourself e.g. if you try and argue that Isla Bryson wasn't "true trans" you'll meet someone like Emma Watson who says that "trans people are who they say they are".

StMarieforme · 29/09/2024 11:07

Badgerandfox227 · 27/09/2024 12:25

I’ve heard that their are children at our local secondary identifying as a cat, they wear ears and a tail and go to the loo on the grass.

I think 'you've heard' is the salient point here...

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/09/2024 10:53

CassieMaddox · 29/09/2024 10:12

Goodness. I think you've got the wrong end of the stick with that teacher.

Having "a serious conversation about trans issues in school" is not the same as "promoting sex change to children". Of course teachers are going to need to talk to students about trans issues, not least because it's a divisive topic that teenagers discuss amongst themselves often.

Unless you are suggesting a return to the section 28 type of model? Most people now accept that approach really did nothing apart from cause gay people to be shamed as children.

Why is it that transactivists throw around Section 28 allegations so irresponsibly? Expecting teachers to be aware of the dangers of casual conversations with mentally vulnerable unwell children thinking they're born in the wrong body is nothing to do with Section 28 (and as a lesbian teacher who actually taught in schools during Section 28 I'm fully aware of what happened).

Have a look at my post at 10.05 for information regarding professional dangerousness - when adults dabble in mental health issues with no qualifications.

Lifeisbetterbythesea · 29/09/2024 10:33

😂

BonfireLady · 29/09/2024 10:31

Unless you are suggesting a return to the section 28 type of model? Most people now accept that approach really did nothing apart from cause gay people to be shamed as children.

Please don't conflate being gay (fact) with someone thinking that they might be "in the wrong body" (belief).

Schools should always teach tolerance of others' differences. Section 28 was abhorrent and homophobic. Thankfully it's in the past.

Being gay won't result in anyone removing body parts or taking synthetic hormones that increase their risk of cardiac failure (testosterone in a female body) or testicular cancer (puberty blockers in males).

The new KCSIE safeguarding guidance for schools makes it very clear that LGB and T (now called "gender questioning") are two very different things. Any teacher who isn't aware of the significant risks associated with gender questioning children shouldn't be talking to students about gender identity at all.

BonfireLady · 29/09/2024 10:17

BonfireLady · 29/09/2024 09:28

It's a shame (but sadly not a surprise) to see the word "transphobia" on this thread. Unfortunately it's impossible to call out the risks of children identifying as the opposite sex, non-binary, furries, therians (or any other identity) without someone thinking this is transphobic.

I don't believe that everyone has a gender identity. However, I accept that many people do believe this and that some people who do will feel incredibly distressed that their perceived identity doesn't match their body. Anyone in this situation deserves evidence-based healthcare care to support them. I also don't believe in god, but I accept that many people do and that for them their faith impacts many aspects of their lives.
Perhaps I'm both transphobic and Christianphobic?

some of the vocabulary is reminiscent of when it used to be acceptable to think being gay was just a phase.

Some people ignorantly used to think, some still do, that being gay was a phase. Also, some people unfortunately just are homophobic.

There is a world of difference between a child starting to wonder if they might be gay and a child starting to wonder if they might be "in the wrong body" (e.g. transgender or therian/other-kin identity). Unfortunately all of it has been conflated and muddled together under LGBTQ+, making it very confusing for adolesents to navigate during the emotionally turbulent time of puberty.

unless you start doing extreme genetic testing on everyone, you can’t just rule that all trans women are men.

Another unfortunate conflation is when DSDs are brought in to the mix.
Everyone is either male or female (their sex) and DSDs are sex-specific.

It's impossible (not just an outlier) to have a womb and a penis, owing to the order in which reproductive organs are formed. Everyone starts with "bi-potential gonads". In males, the instruction (the SRY gene, normally on the Y chromosome) tells the body to form testes from these gonads - from this moment on, it's impossible to have a womb. The lack of this instruction (the lack of an SRY gene) tells the body to form ovaries from these gonads - from this moment on, it's impossible to have a penis. Reproductive organs always form in the same order: testes or ovaries first, then the internal "plumbing" (womb etc or prostate etc) until finally the external features (vulva/clitoris etc or scrotum/penis).

Although all DSDs are rare, one of the more common in males is "46 XY 5-ARD". In this DSD, the penis and scrotum don't form until puberty. Everything else is formed inside as normal but the external genetalia look "female" at birth. When they get to puberty, boys with 46 XY 5-ARD will find that their body finally reacts to the SRY gene: their voices will drop, they will grow a penis and (most of the time) their testicles will drop outside the body. They are no different to any other male at this point, with male strength and speed etc - although many will have grown up believing themselves to be female, which must be very confusing and distressing to go through. From what was written in the press, it sounds like the two Olympic boxers at the heart of this year's controversy had this condition. Sometimes the testes might stay inside e.g. the runner Caster Semenya talks about having internal testes.

This is a brilliant, compassionately written article about 46 XY 5-ARD by Michael Moseley a few years ago:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34290981

However, as has been said by PPs, all transwomen are males i.e. they have been born with male body parts, male strength and speed etc. Some may end up removing body parts but, according to Stonewall, most retain their penis and testicles. It's impossible to be a transwoman unless you are a male.

Here's Caster Semenya saying "My testicles don't make me less of a woman":

https://x.com/RileyGaines/status/1721896581396607132?t=u3rbDt2MkFf1BExQSeinQ&s=19

How does this DSD link to gender identity, furries and therians?

The whole lot has been conflated under LGBTQ. But who gets to decide what is "nonsense" and what is someone's genuine "authentic self"?

Is it OK for Caster to be a testicle-owning "woman", running against women who don't have testicles? (The testicles don't make Caster faster, but the male body frame, male lungs, male efficient hip angle generating power to the legs etc all give Caster an advantage over non-testicled women)?

Is it OK for (transwo)men who identify as women to go to women's prisons? Should Isla Bryson be in a women's prison? We can't do "genital inspections" to make this choice as obviously that would be inhumane. Also, we're told that transwomen can have penises, so it's pointless checking anyway. Apparently we can't look at statistics, even though approximately half of transwomen in prison are in for sexual or violent crimes, because we're being transphobic if we do. What can we do?

Surely the logical answer is that:

a) we accept that some people believe they are the opposite sex, non-binary, furry, therian etc
b) we legislate on facts when thinking about sports and spaces e.g. keep women's sports for women, no transwomen in women's prisons, no conflation of DSDs with gender identity
c) we don't teach children that "everyone has a gender identity" in schools
d) we separate out LGB (fact) from T (belief) and Q++ (encompassing... anything...)
e) we provide evidence-based healthcare for anyone who believes that they are "in the wrong body" or that their body doesn't "align" with their "authentic self" (gender dysphoria, species dysphoria etc)
f) we recognise and call out the safeguarding risks when children and young people think that they might have a gender identity (including species identity e.g. cat gender) that differs from their body - we look for underlying root causes of the confusion in line with the Cass Report recommendations.

ArabellaScott · 29/09/2024 10:14

TigerTraveller · 29/09/2024 09:59

Because its genetically impossible to be another species but there are Intersex people. However, chances are a % of cases (no idea of stats) are MH like these furries. Also societal expectations so feeling you don't belong as "girls wear this" or "boys don't enjoy that".

You appear to be suggesting that 'intersex' people (or people with Variations of Sex Characteristics, or Disorders/Differences of Sexual Development) are new sex categories.

They are not. Humans are sexually dimorphic. Chromosomal disorders do not mean there are more than two sexes.

CassieMaddox · 29/09/2024 10:12

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/09/2024 07:54

I'm sure you mean well but children with gender dysmorphia need qualified psychological treatment. Adults in schools are completely unqualified in promoting sex change to children. There should be minimal discussions about "trans issues" in schools outside of age appropriate discussions about protected characteristics, the human rights that all citizens have etc .
A school's only role is to ensure that gender questioning children are referred to the right agencies for qualified support and that's it. Not dabble in this dreadful experiment that is being carried out on children. The Cass Review has pointed out that socially transitioning children is not a neutral act.

This by a clinical psychologist is worth reading about the psychological damage that's being done to teenagers by pretending that they can change sex:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/teenager-says-theyre-transgender/

Goodness. I think you've got the wrong end of the stick with that teacher.

Having "a serious conversation about trans issues in school" is not the same as "promoting sex change to children". Of course teachers are going to need to talk to students about trans issues, not least because it's a divisive topic that teenagers discuss amongst themselves often.

Unless you are suggesting a return to the section 28 type of model? Most people now accept that approach really did nothing apart from cause gay people to be shamed as children.

TheKeatingFive · 29/09/2024 10:09

If a child in a school has genuine gender dysphoria I would really hope that this child is under the care of a mental health professional.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/09/2024 10:05

ThePearlSloth · 29/09/2024 08:07

Well, I live in Wales and we have specific guidance on what to teach children about relationships and sexuality in the classroom and are required to work with local authority and Welsh government on that provision. And yes it does include some discussion of trans, of course. I’m sure you also mean well but referring children to relevant authorities is not our role in the classroom.

I completely understand that teachers are caught between a rock and a hard place if they have government guidance / school leadership that pushes selling an ideology to children over the need to safeguard them.
All schools have the responsibility to refer children for specialist support if they have mental health challenges. Teachers don't dabble in counselling or therapy for children with eating disorders, self harming or suicidal ideation - it's professionally dangerous as we lack the qualifications to do this and could do actual harm. An individual class teacher wouldn't make that referral but the pastoral system is set up to do this.

I understand that teachers are being told to do this but we need to start pushing back. Cass has made it clear that socially transitioning children is potentially dangerous and not the role of a school.

TheKeatingFive · 29/09/2024 10:03

TigerTraveller · 29/09/2024 09:59

Because its genetically impossible to be another species but there are Intersex people. However, chances are a % of cases (no idea of stats) are MH like these furries. Also societal expectations so feeling you don't belong as "girls wear this" or "boys don't enjoy that".

'Intersex' people are not trans. You are conflating two totally different things.

We should be doing everything we can to challenge societal expectations, rather than indicate there is something wrong with children if they dont align with them.

TigerTraveller · 29/09/2024 09:59

TheKeatingFive · 27/09/2024 13:04

I'm never quite sure why this is clearly 'made up bollocks' whereas men identifying as women or vice versa is treated as deadly serious.

Any thoughts?

Because its genetically impossible to be another species but there are Intersex people. However, chances are a % of cases (no idea of stats) are MH like these furries. Also societal expectations so feeling you don't belong as "girls wear this" or "boys don't enjoy that".

wolverine1969 · 29/09/2024 09:41

In my day at secondary school anyone identifying as a wolf, furry or whatever would have had the absolute piss ripped out of them. There is no way fellow pupils would have gone along with something so ridiculous without calling out such idiotic behaviour. I can't believe that any teachers can really think that this is ok to allow in schools- are kids now in charge of the adults?

BonfireLady · 29/09/2024 09:28

It's a shame (but sadly not a surprise) to see the word "transphobia" on this thread. Unfortunately it's impossible to call out the risks of children identifying as the opposite sex, non-binary, furries, therians (or any other identity) without someone thinking this is transphobic.

I don't believe that everyone has a gender identity. However, I accept that many people do believe this and that some people who do will feel incredibly distressed that their perceived identity doesn't match their body. Anyone in this situation deserves evidence-based healthcare care to support them. I also don't believe in god, but I accept that many people do and that for them their faith impacts many aspects of their lives.
Perhaps I'm both transphobic and Christianphobic?

some of the vocabulary is reminiscent of when it used to be acceptable to think being gay was just a phase.

Some people ignorantly used to think, some still do, that being gay was a phase. Also, some people unfortunately just are homophobic.

There is a world of difference between a child starting to wonder if they might be gay and a child starting to wonder if they might be "in the wrong body" (e.g. transgender or therian/other-kin identity). Unfortunately all of it has been conflated and muddled together under LGBTQ+, making it very confusing for adolesents to navigate during the emotionally turbulent time of puberty.

unless you start doing extreme genetic testing on everyone, you can’t just rule that all trans women are men.

Another unfortunate conflation is when DSDs are brought in to the mix.
Everyone is either male or female (their sex) and DSDs are sex-specific.

It's impossible (not just an outlier) to have a womb and a penis, owing to the order in which reproductive organs are formed. Everyone starts with "bi-potential gonads". In males, the instruction (the SRY gene, normally on the Y chromosome) tells the body to form testes from these gonads - from this moment on, it's impossible to have a womb. The lack of this instruction (the lack of an SRY gene) tells the body to form ovaries from these gonads - from this moment on, it's impossible to have a penis. Reproductive organs always form in the same order: testes or ovaries first, then the internal "plumbing" (womb etc or prostate etc) until finally the external features (vulva/clitoris etc or scrotum/penis).

Although all DSDs are rare, one of the more common in males is "46 XY 5-ARD". In this DSD, the penis and scrotum don't form until puberty. Everything else is formed inside as normal but the external genetalia look "female" at birth. When they get to puberty, boys with 46 XY 5-ARD will find that their body finally reacts to the SRY gene: their voices will drop, they will grow a penis and (most of the time) their testicles will drop outside the body. They are no different to any other male at this point, with male strength and speed etc - although many will have grown up believing themselves to be female, which must be very confusing and distressing to go through. From what was written in the press, it sounds like the two Olympic boxers at the heart of this year's controversy had this condition. Sometimes the testes might stay inside e.g. the runner Caster Semenya talks about having internal testes.

This is a brilliant, compassionately written article about 46 XY 5-ARD by Michael Moseley a few years ago:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34290981

However, as has been said by PPs, all transwomen are males i.e. they have been born with male body parts, male strength and speed etc. Some may end up removing body parts but, according to Stonewall, most retain their penis and testicles. It's impossible to be a transwoman unless you are a male.

Catherine and his cousin Carla, Guevedoces in the Dominican Republic

The extraordinary case of the Guevedoces

Children in a remote village in the Dominican Republic have an extremely unusual condition.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34290981

ThePearlSloth · 29/09/2024 08:07

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/09/2024 07:54

I'm sure you mean well but children with gender dysmorphia need qualified psychological treatment. Adults in schools are completely unqualified in promoting sex change to children. There should be minimal discussions about "trans issues" in schools outside of age appropriate discussions about protected characteristics, the human rights that all citizens have etc .
A school's only role is to ensure that gender questioning children are referred to the right agencies for qualified support and that's it. Not dabble in this dreadful experiment that is being carried out on children. The Cass Review has pointed out that socially transitioning children is not a neutral act.

This by a clinical psychologist is worth reading about the psychological damage that's being done to teenagers by pretending that they can change sex:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/teenager-says-theyre-transgender/

Well, I live in Wales and we have specific guidance on what to teach children about relationships and sexuality in the classroom and are required to work with local authority and Welsh government on that provision. And yes it does include some discussion of trans, of course. I’m sure you also mean well but referring children to relevant authorities is not our role in the classroom.

CheeseDreamsTonight · 29/09/2024 08:05

Surely a real wolf would not be allowed in school. So how is this person if they are a 'real' wolf.
To stay in school they would have to admit they are not. I'd be pushing this if my child was there!

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/09/2024 07:54

ThePearlSloth · 29/09/2024 07:38

On a serious note, I am a teacher and lots of the kids tell me that furries exist but I’m not aware of any. However, there are children with gender dysmorphia in school and people identifying as cats and wolves trivialises their experiences and makes it more difficult to have a serious conversation about trans issues in school without ‘furries’ being dragged into it.

I'm sure you mean well but children with gender dysmorphia need qualified psychological treatment. Adults in schools are completely unqualified in promoting sex change to children. There should be minimal discussions about "trans issues" in schools outside of age appropriate discussions about protected characteristics, the human rights that all citizens have etc .
A school's only role is to ensure that gender questioning children are referred to the right agencies for qualified support and that's it. Not dabble in this dreadful experiment that is being carried out on children. The Cass Review has pointed out that socially transitioning children is not a neutral act.

This by a clinical psychologist is worth reading about the psychological damage that's being done to teenagers by pretending that they can change sex:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/teenager-says-theyre-transgender/

When a teenager says they're transgender - Transgender Trend

What's the best approach when a teenager says they're transgender? Are there risks in the affirmation and social transition approach?

https://www.transgendertrend.com/teenager-says-theyre-transgender

ThePearlSloth · 29/09/2024 07:46

Garlictest · 29/09/2024 03:11

God, I don't know how you stand it! Back in ye olden days, I was a creator on Second Life. It was full of virtual furries, being disgusting to the point they'd be rapists in real life (you couldn't rape an avatar in SL, for clarity. It was the way they talked.) At first I didn't get why there were so many squirrels and cats flying around, I found it funny. They did NOT like being laughed at.

That’s useful to know - literally the only knowledge I have of furries is what the kids in school have told me, and they tell me that it’s people identifying as animals in the same way that trans people do. I don’t especially want to educate myself on furries if they’re fetishists but maybe that’s an aspect of sex and relationships education we need to cover so as to clearly differentiate it from trans issues. It’s really difficult to compete with internet culture 🥴

ThePearlSloth · 29/09/2024 07:38

On a serious note, I am a teacher and lots of the kids tell me that furries exist but I’m not aware of any. However, there are children with gender dysmorphia in school and people identifying as cats and wolves trivialises their experiences and makes it more difficult to have a serious conversation about trans issues in school without ‘furries’ being dragged into it.

ThePearlSloth · 29/09/2024 07:32

KnittedCardi · 27/09/2024 12:32

Cats don't go to the loo on the grass. They dig a hole, cover it up. Then lick their paws and arse clean. If they are not doing that, they are not a cat.

Actually I have known several cats who toilet on the grass. Maybe they are identifying as dogs 😬

HolyPeaches · 29/09/2024 06:30

When I was about 15/16 at secondary school, my best friends boyfriend (at the time) told us that he was a wolf.

One evening when a group of us had been loitering in the park, Wolf-man (we nicknamed him this afterwards) started randomly convulsing, crouching down and started barking and howling at the moon. Genuinely believing he was going transform into a wolf like Jacob on Twilight.

He was a fucking weirdo. And thankfully my friend dumped him not long afterwards.

Sorry, completely irrelevant anecdote but this memory had come flooding back and I’m in hysterics.

ArabellaScott · 29/09/2024 06:27

duc748 · 28/09/2024 22:47

You really do, under English law.

And Scots.

Although this includes a 'surgically created' penis.