Child identifies as a wolf ... WTF?

Wow, WoodforTrees. That’s a lot of words to say “I’m not a bigot, but I really am”.

Most of this nonsense was said about gay people 30 years ago.

You are on your soapbox shouting “but what about the children”. Really children are harmed by people like you. Children should be accepted for who they are & this message isn’t an agenda or dangerous. Just listen to your own kids and leave others to do the same.

I’m often reminded of the quote “Why be homophobic, transphobic or racist when you can just be quiet?”

Or is it because hate still exists

Not plenty of people

You mean just like it was going around that children in America were identifying as cats because schools were buying cat litter and then the real story came out that they bought cat litter so kids could still go to the toilet in an active shooter situation

Plenty of people we are seeing are detransitioning. Some barely in adulthood allowed to do this. I swear one June every ad on YouTube was for a rainbow show and every commercial a PSA. It’s too much. This is another thing in a long line of things people have done to one another feeling passionately about for years that eventually history will decide was the wrong way to think of things. I put forth the examples to taking children from unmarried women or parents whose spouse abandoned them, the eugenics programs in the States to sterilize ‘undesirables’ and the sending indigenous to schools or other families to assimilate. All are shameful acts 20/20 hindsight and all that. I saw a my strange obsession show where people where indeed trying to animal print themselves and even wanting to transplant fur onto themselves. Cause they are animals. Just cause you have an urge to do something one minute doesn’t make it a life long thing.

Oh how very simplified.

It's not bigoted. It's the real world and there are real concerns which you are choosing to ignore. Most people on this thread would agree that body dysmorphia is a real - albeit very rare - condition. I expect most would also agree that there are some cases where some (a few) adults genuinely feel so alien in their bodies that transitioning might be right thing to do.

But that's not good enough for stonewall/mermaids/the trans cheerleaders who are pushing an agenda of trans being a viable and easily reached option that should be discussed and explored in young children. And so afraid are we of being of being seen anti-trans, that the agenda has seeped into classrooms and become a mainstream option. And now here we are with people wanting to self id as different species.

It might not harm me, but I believe it can harm and confuse children and young people, and it is not a healthy society when thousands of people feel confused and discontent in their own biology.

For some it's a fad, but unlike a stupid haircut, it can be very hard to retreat from, especially with online communities aggressively shutting down anyone who doesn't align with their thinking. You get involved in a community like that at aged 15, you'd find it very difficult to un-indoctrinate yourself if you feel differently about your body at 20.

It's interesting isn't it, that whilst there are many older people who talk about the regrets they have about not coming out as gay in their youth, because times were different and people were prejudiced and they were afraid.... Not so many people of older generations talk about the regret they have in accepting their sex and biology. I wonder why that is? Could it be because it wasn't being shoved down their throats and confusing the fuck out of them?

If Wlfie needed a blood transfusion would they go to tge hisputal for human blood or send for Wokf blood?

Ah cool. Just seen your withdrawal of the trans activist comment.

My post above still stands as I didn't read it that you specifically called CassieMaddox a TRA.

However, as you say, it does seem odd for a "gender critical feminist" to clash in this way over safeguarding. It's even more odd to then bring in Section 28 and conflate LGB with T. It's certainly a niche brand of gender critical feminism, but as I don't think of myself as gender critical (I really don't like that term) what do I know?

OP, apologies for the derail from me too. This is my last comment on gender critical feminism!

Well said.

I can't see you making any reference to CassieMaddox being a trans rights activist on this thread at all.

However, I fully agree with your point that there are plenty of trans rights activists who do piggy back off Section 28 as a way to try and argue their point. Unfortunately this conflation of LGB with T does seem to cause just enough confusion in public discussion to allow TRAs to label people with concerns about child safeguarding in relation to these issues as "homophobic and transphobic" etc.

Hopefully the awareness that LGB and T are very different things is growing amongst young people - not just "dinosaurs" like me🤞
There is a very encouraging thread on another board, the OP written by a lesbian woman, which suggests that it might be 🤞 I won't link it here as it would be good to avoid it getting trounced all over by activists trying to sow confusion for as long as possible. Obviously it will get found eventually but so far so good - the one person who did disagree was pretty courteous about doing so.

Wow! A lot of bigoted responses here questioning if transgender people should be allowed to be themselves.

I hope all with this view have teenage kids or older. I’d hate to think of a mum making their young child bigoted.

Either way, if you want to get between the decisions a person makes for themselves & a doctor… perhaps just realise you don’t know much about the topic and stay quiet. All this nastiness & pearl clutching by the uninformed only harms people (adults and children).

Happy to withdraw the transactivist comment. Re clarifying - no feminist I know repeatedly criticises women or parents talking about safeguarding. Based on the number of occasions I've noticed you comment criticising safeguarding discussions on here I assumed you were a transactivist. But as I don't follow your posts closely am happy to be corrected.

Edited to apologise to the OP for any derail of her thread

Except that not what the poster (me) said. I said that:
"Adults in schools are completely unqualified in promoting sex change to children. There should be minimal discussions about "trans issues" in schools outside of age appropriate discussions about protected characteristics, the human rights that all citizens have etc" .

Not a Section 28 approach as you so offensively suggest. But a nuanced and age appropriate approach that centres the welfare of children.

See how important it is to quote accurately rather than summarise in line with your own prejudices?

Are you calling me a transactivist? As a gender critical feminist I take that as a personal attack so perhaps you can withdraw/clarify.

Teachers discuss all kinds of sensitive issues with students and manage it well most of the time. There is no need to "ban" certain topics, no good comes from that.

I'm not.
I'm saying I don't think a section 28 approach of banning teachers talking about "gender questioning" is the right one. I was replying to PP saying teachers should not be saying anything about trans issues to students. I strongly disagree.

Thinking about this, is species identification really that different from Adults who identify as mystical beings/beings with supernatural powers?

Go online and you'll find a not-small-number of people who say they are fairy kind. They believe they are fairies. They decorate their houses in fairy paraphernalia and possibly wear wings indoors or at special meetups to make themselves feel good. They possibly call themselves by a fairy name that may or may not be secret.

Also even here on mumsnet we have a Witches Corner and ironically, from my fleeting perusals over the years it might possibly qualify as the most supportive corner of MN. People identify as witches and wizards in RL.

Neither or these things seems to prevent people from living otherwise normal lives.

Perhaps species identification is just on this same wavelength. From my prior investigations Therians do differentiate themselves from Furries and say they know they are not the animal but possibly were that animal at one point in a different life (open to being corrected)

See also people who have 'spirit animals' or 'Guardian Angels'

All manage to get on with life in linear society, have jobs, families whilst having their private view of themselves.

Trans identification which pushes the individual to do surgery should not perhaps be lumped in with them.

Gender dysphoria is a serious condition experienced by a very tiny percentage of the population. It’s not the same as being gay because it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It requires professional psychological help not advice from teachers or other well meaning individuals. The inner process of finding self that one individual goes on should not endanger or impinge on the rights of 50% of the population. Biological reality is a fact and girls need protected spaces to be girls in the vast variety of ways that presents. When biological males enter those spaces, girls and women no longer have rights

100% agree with all of this. Very important points.

This is probably very outing but my very young GDD thinks she's a cat and meows.

DD also claims she's part cat as she likes curling up in warm places and sleeping.

Absolutely. People forget that a big part of identity formation is exploring who one is. For girls who have been conditioned to reject their female body parts by society, who have had their parts sexualised and objectified, who have experienced sexual trauma, who have been conditioned to believe that gender equates with certain dress and roles, it’s part of development to disconnect from the body, struggle to understand the body and one’s place in the world and try on different identities in the search of self. You cannot impose permanent life changing medications, operations and procedures on a child who is still evolving. The child is too young to have grown into a solid self and that should not be taken away from them by adults meddling in the growth process

Gender dysphoria is a serious condition experienced by a very tiny percentage of the population. It’s not the same as being gay because it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It requires professional psychological help not advice from teachers or other well meaning individuals. The inner process of finding self that one individual goes on should not endanger or impinge on the rights of 50% of the population. Biological reality is a fact and girls need protected spaces to be girls in the vast variety of ways that presents. When biological males enter those spaces, girls and women no longer have rights

The cheerleeding and such does harm

🎯

A child telling someone they are the opposite of what they are should be treated as a lukewarm “0h”. Gender does not matter at the age of 3, age of 8. The cheerleeding and such does harm. Don’t know why that is such a hard thing to grasp. Time will tell.

I think the phrase is “good men stay out so bad men stand out”

Agreed. But the firm fairness does need to come with compassion and listening, given the influences that have led to the self-ID and the potential for other underlying mental health issues.

The same principle applies to any self-ID, whether it's transspecies or transgender. In the case of species, unpicking this is a lot easier, but in theory it should be just as simple to say "unfortunately it's impossible to know how an animal from another species feels" as "unfortunately it's impossible to know how a human of the opposite sex feels".

Sadly, we've got lots of adults telling children that they can smash sex-based stereotypes... by choosing to "align" their body with the stereotypes of the opposite sex 🤦‍♀️ We've gone from "great, you're a boy who loves glitter and Disney princess dresses!" to "if you love glitter and Disney princess dresses you're probably a girl. Let's fight those transphobic bigots who try to stop you being yourself".

It seems mad that we can see it for what it is when children are identifying as a different species but not as a different sex.

"The distress that these children feel is real".

And that is the problem. Because we have created a world where feeling distressed that you are not being taken seriously in your self id as a Fox is a 'thing'. NOONE should be getting distressed about this. A child shouldn't even have the concept of 'self id' in their heads. A child who says that they are an animal should be treated kindly but with reality very much in mind:

"Oh you want to PRETEND to be a fox today - lovely. We can have tea in the garden where you feel more at home this evening as a treat" - fine.

"You say you ARE a fox and are refusing to eat anything that hasn't come from the bin?" NOT FINE, and this is the point at which you should start to parent and be the adult in the room.

These kind of nonsense is insidious, when it actually needs a firm and clear response from the get-go.

School is about getting along with others, taking turns, 2+4=6, plans for the future. They also have a role in seeing if a child is in danger or in want. And partner with relevant charities and governmental signups. Or hand out food themselves. Our local high school has a school pantry. I don’t know about over there but at age 9 or 10, maybe 12 suddenly they are getting girls to abortion clinics during school hours without telling a parent or getting permission but can’t give a child or allow a child to bring midol to cope with period pain. Only meds a doctor has written can be handled out in school. Not even carried by a student it must go from parent to nurse. Schools hand out free tampons to boys. Now they are ‘supporting” snd facilitating gender transitions to include hormone treatment and surgery. When my son became 12 suddenly the doctors office outside school needed him to sign forms. I’m like he is a minor and can’t sign contracts. The woman said oh it’s more for 12 year old girls who are pregnant. Fair enough she would then be the baby’s mom. Planned parenthood got into hot water for males bringing 10 year olds and other under age of consent to abortion clinics and they are not communication with police but getting rid of the evidence this step parent, parent’s boyfriend, uncle was raping this child. Could a teacher or coach be doing the same? Usually just other kids being dad most the time. But you see how goofy it is. A school is a place of education and a place that forms a person. A few seminars is not enough to be experts in schizophrenia, substance abuse, suicide, teen pregnancy, human sexuality and identity. Some hubris schools possess to think they can single handedly mange an 8 year olds hormone treatment to block puberty so they can get remove their penis later and form a hole in their body their penis will be turned inside out to line it needing constant insertion by plastic things for it to remain open and to be rendered sterile in the process. My son has special needs, we are not guardians at this point but the lawyer was saying what it entailed. One thing I was happy about for the protection of disabled people a guardian can’t decide on sterilization on their own. A judge needs to agree. I was happy for the protection given the eugenics programs that lasted until the 80’s in one state. They also extended to the poor or the kids of poor and disabled even when nothing “wrong”. The people deluding themselves into thinking they were provided a service for humanity at the expensive of vulnerable people. People have a natural right to procreate. Sad history we should have known better. But “Ms Woods” at the grammar school could facilitate a medical process for a child of anyone’s that would make them sterile at age 8 medications and 12 surgically? How can this be allowed? How can someone opposed be called a hater? It’s not conservative Christian’s who vote against abortion in their state that are hostile to the LGBT, etc… community. Just think if there were a parental test for gender identity or homosexuality the liberal secular world would be like Iceland and downs. People for abortion would abort. Check travel government guidance around the work for women’s and LGBT traveler’s and where there is danger for them. It’s not the west. But the west gets all this hate and pushback on issues that really are not present. The west simply permits people to express themselves. Those place that should get pushback are placed that don’t allow it.

No school should be allowing this behavior whatsoever.