Child identifies as a wolf ... WTF?

A few posts in...

Personally (based on my own experience of a therian niece) be concerned. She was older when she started but fully believes she has an animal spirit inside her. She will be changing her name to therian name by deed poll and her entire personality is now her animal spirit. We have essentially lost our old niece, she has no therian friends in real life, her entire day is spent making content for social media and talking to her online "therian" friends. Some of which are men in their mid 30's. (She's just just turned 18). Her real life social group are a mixture of self diagnosed autistics and non-binary types with blue/pink hair.

So yeah from my experience be concerned. There are a lot of adults in the online therian community and it's another area of the internet where child grooming is hidden in a "wholesome hobby" type way

Fkn ell.

I'm going through some of the pages I missed on this thread.

This post is particularly useful. I had a read through the linked thread and.... wow...... that comment from the therian!! 😮

Well, it certainly highlights a few things: autism, belief in a species soul, links to anime, links to kink. It's like playing a game of bingo and already knowing you'll get a full-house from the start.

Hear hear 👏

I was busy collecting some images from the PHSE guidance when this was posted.

It's madness, isn't it? We can hear things with our own ears (e.g. the audio re species identity) and see things with our own eyes (e.g. draft statutory age-appropriate sex ed content), yet apparently these things aren't true 🤦‍♀️

Glad the bbc reel on fb is of Lucy from the family trust saying that children need boundaries

www.facebook.com/share/r/42Frwn7wetzD38Za/?mibextid=UalRPS

I've known autistic primary children in send settings who like to dress up (mostly as cats) but it's clearly framed as "dressing up time."

Communicating in cat during maths was firmly discouraged iirc.

Here are some of the things that pupils would learn about (at an age appropriate time) under the proposed PHSE guidance - screenshots below. This is from the section on law, but it's a useful summary of the range of topics covered.

Unfortunately the guidance doesn't mention furrydom but it does have a good section about gender identity belief, and it references out to the Gender Questioning Children guidance too. Given furry identities are apparently part of the TQ+++, these are the relevant safeguarding documents.

Meh. It doesn't matter how reasonable or evidenced you are. No matter how much experience you have dealing with ND children, SRE in schools, safeguarding or the rest. There are some people who are determined to reframe legitimate concerns as a "culture war", dismiss discussing safeguarding children with sexist tropes like "pearl clutching" and to deny deny deny, no matter how many posters on a thread state their experiences. I've no idea why - perhaps just for the love of being oppositional or a dislike of women who refuse to comply with instructions?

What does matter is that parents have the confidence to challenge safeguarding fails and age inappropriate issues in their child's school and elsewhere. And that Mumsnet remains a place where parents can have these challenging discussions and be treated seriously and challenged (as has happened repeatedly on this thread about the litter tray falsehoods), while recognising that, according to parents, there is a legitimate issue in some schools that needs to be addressed.

I don't think blaming schools/teachers and parents for being "too soft on kids" and banning sex education apparently from the pure mechanics is at all an effective approach myself.

Who is trying to ban sex education?!

Unfortunately, Labour managed to position the draft PHSE guidance that was put together under the Tory government as some kind of ban on sex education. Perhaps that's where the confusion is coming from here?

It's similar to how people who advocate for age-appropriate books in school libraries are positioned as "banning books".

We use age classification for films without controversy, so why shouldn't we do so for sex education and school library books?

Here's the draft sex ed guidance that is apparently too problematic, so has been left on the shelf by Labour:

https://consult.education.gov.uk/rshe-team/review-of-the-rshe-statutory-guidance/supporting_documents/Draft%20RSE%20and%20Health%20Education%20statutory%20guidance.pdf

I don't think blaming schools/teachers and parents for being "too soft on kids" and banning sex education apparently from the pure mechanics is at all an effective approach myself.

I've not said that. Not at all. It's knowing that it's a link to online harms and all that that brings.

Banning sex education?!

She was clearly responding to the start of the conversation that we didn't hear.

She said nothing about "species identity" being valid, that's an assumption by the Mail. They do go on these little crusades to "prove" certain things are definitely happening, despite all evidence to the contrary. It's irresponsible scaremongering imo.

The teacher has berated the pupil for questioning someone identifying as a "cow or something":

The girl responds: 'I didn't say that, I just said if they want to identify as a cow or something, then they are genuinely unwell, and they're crazy.'

'You were questioning their identity,' the teacher replies.

Obviously we didn't hear the start of the conversation but the logical conclusion (from the first response we hear from the pupil) is that it was a conversation about species identity, before the teacher then pivoted on to gender identity.

OK so for you it's not about surgical interventions and children genuinely believing they are animals. Its about introductions to sexual fetishes and potential for abuse.

To me, part of an effective approach to that is sex education where difficult topics such as fetishes are discussed and teenagers are encouraged to trust their instincts and develop their own boundaries. Parents also need to bring these things up if children ask about furries. Finally Internet providers definitely need to do more to protect children from inappropriate content.

I don't think blaming schools/teachers and parents for being "too soft on kids" and banning sex education apparently from the pure mechanics is at all an effective approach myself.

The teacher said nothing about "species identity"

So if we all go along with the bollocks that you can identity as anything you like, I agree with PP that I identify as a 68 year old. I'll have my state pension now thanks.

Paedophiles will probably identify as children, so they will want school places. Someone else may identify as a corgi, so they'll need a place in Buckingham Palace.

When I watch complications of therians, to me they're getting a lot of proprioceptive feedback from the jumping around.

This may also be a pull for Children and teens who are perhaps autistic, as well as the visual sensory feedback from making the TikToks.

Kids and teens do need "rough and tumble play;" it's why judo was invented.

From experience, the kids who dislike football and more mainstream sports tend to enjoy martial arts. It's a huge shame these are not on our curriculums.

This looks harmless but as i and others have previously said, it's where the internet can lead someone from this .

Indeed.

This article offers an interesting angle on everything:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/how-the-furry-community-became-a-safe-space-for-youth/

Apparently it's reassuring that not every fursuit is a mursuit (costume designed for easy access sex) and that the LGBTQ community welcomes furries.

Some excerpts:

[to be in the community means] hanging out with a sizable group of other under 18 furries, many of whom, like my daughter, have a more open, flexible, and creative understanding of gender, sexuality, and identity.

I quickly learned that joining the furry community is not just about putting on a fursuit and “being an animal.” The fandom is a happy home for large numbers of non-heterosexual, transgender, genderqueer, and gender non-conforming people, welcoming many who feel stigmatized at home, school, and work. For many under 18 furries, the community provides a place where they “fit in” for the first time—one where they’re celebrated for their creative, invented fursonas.

Presumably it's all one big happy community where the fetish furries (including the ones who wear nappies and/or BDSM gear, as well as the suits with easy access for sex) get along well with all of those who just like to dress up. What's more, it's a great mix of all ages, with under 18s feeling welcome. How lovely 😍

Even better, there are resources available for parents to gaslight teach them about how fantastic furrydom is for "furries of all ages" and there is also "inclusive programming for all, including meetups for furry parents and furries with disabilities."

With all this blurring of boundaries, what could possibly go wrong for autistic or other vulnerable children when bringing it in to schools....? 🤦‍♀️

Edited to correct the context of the first excerpt from the article.

When we did the Uni drop off we saw one in the wild. He looked most incongruous in cat ears etc. His parents were seeming very conservative like the Tory family when Matf Lucas does the Tory skit.

it’s real & it’s happening. I have also seen a few adult furries at Heathrow.

The mumsnet thread Glinner links to:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3639203-Nathaniel-Knight-partner-of-Aimee-Challenor-worrying-twitter-admissions

Spelling fail now

Quite fail, first paragraph is cassiemaddox

Why have you conflated gender identity (where I agree there is a medical scandal) with species identity (where there doesn't appear to be)? Who do you believe is behind the "species identity" brewing scandal and why? Who are you thinking children need safeguarding from in this potential "species identity scandal" and how do you propose that happens?

@CassieMaddox it's a fetishistic trend online (and at pride now) that's now clearly part of children's day to day experiences- on TikTok it tends to be running around pretending to be an animal; deeper into the internet it's fetish.

We seem to have forgotten about David challenor very quickly, the Green Party member and father of a Green Party trans activist Aimee challenor, who's furry name was baloo and was convicted of raping a girl in his attic:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/reddit-aimee-challenor-and-a-disturbing-insight-into-the-trans-debate/

So who is Challenor? In 2015, David Challenor, Aimee’s father was reported to the police for the rape and torture of a ten-year-old. In 2018, he was tried, convicted and jailed for 22 years for what the judge called his ‘depraved’ catalogue of crimes. Warwick crown court heard that David Challenor dressed as a little girl called Lucy while he strung the child from a beam, electrocuted and raped her in the small Coventry home in which Aimee also lived.

However, as reddit and eventually the Green Party, and also eventually also the Lib Dem's realised, Aimee's lifestyle isn't exactly the safest for someone who seeks positions of power:

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/aimee-challenor-and-nathaniel-knight

This article is riddled with the darker side of animal identities:

It’s a site based around Digimon Hentai. If you’ve seen Digimon on TV you'll know they’re stories based around children and creatures, and Hentai is a Japanese term for "manga or anime characterised by overtly sexualised characters and sexually explicit images and plots". So, as you’d expect, Digiartistsdomain is loosely a "smut" (porn) website focusing on paedophillia and bestiality around the Digimon characters. If you're on it, it's because you're interested in that.

It's about online harms, and the potential for online harms.

When my son was 3 I asked him what he would like to be, his answer was a horse. He even had an idea of growing hooves and a tail. I had a giggle with him about humans not being able to turn into animals but it appears I've ruined his life and being a horse is an achievable ambition. He doesn't even remember it now!

What we do know is that organisations who do believe and promote this stuff have been allowed to go into schools and push their versions of reality via training and PSHE materials. While there's no doubt that most teachers roll their eyes at the nonsense, there are powerful groups who take this seriously and have been allowed to self identify as "experts" in sex ed etc and peddle their nonsense to schools. Added to the problem is that some respected safeguarding organisations fail to engage their critical thinking and also push things that shouldn't be encouraged for children:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12026295/Safeguarding-organisation-blasted-giving-guidance-support-pupils-furries.html

My sisters next door neighbours 2nd cousins hairdressers nephews best friends mother agrees 🙄

The person who told me is a TA at the school, I’ve known her for years and she’s horrified by it.

Looping back to the school where there was a child who apparently identified as a cat, even if it didn't happen (the newspaper reports get quite muddled on whether it did or didn't), what clearly did happen was the teacher conflating species belief with gender identity belief - and then going further and conflating a lack of belief in gender identity with homophobia. From an article which contains the original audio:

It begins with the teacher asking the pupil: 'How dare you? You just really upset someone, saying things like [you] should be in an asylum.'

The girl responds: 'I didn't say that, I just said if they want to identify as a cow or something, then they are genuinely unwell, and they're crazy.'

'You were questioning their identity,' the teacher replies. 'Where did you get this idea from that there are only two genders?'

'I just said my opinion,' the pupil replies. 'If I can respect their opinion, can't they respect mine?' The teacher goes on to assert there are 'lots of genders' including 'transgender' and 'agender'.

The teacher then links the girl's gender-critical attitude with 'homophobia', adding: 'It is not an opinion… if you don't like it, you need to go to a different school'.

Here is the article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12212063/Teacher-stays-silent-gender-row-scolding-pupil-questioning-childs-claim-shes-cat.html

So at the very least, there is an example that we can all listen to with our own ears of a teacher forcing their personal belief (that everyone has a gender identity and that species identities are part of this) on to children in their class as if a) it is factually true and b) rejecting this belief is tantamount to homophobia.

When the rejection of this enforced belief is labelled as "culture wars" or "right wing", this demonstrates how concerned parents are being silenced and vilified as bigots.

So, even if this was just clickbait with no proof that a child at the school had identified as a cat (devil's advocate/benefit of the doubt), it is absolute proof that on at least this one occasion, children are being told that species identity is a part of gender identity. It therefore stands to reason (as @WoodforTrees says) that vulnerable children may go on to ask for tail surgery or similar when they reach adulthood, given there are already many examples of 18 year olds in the UK having their penises, testicles or breasts removed so that their body "aligns with" their perceived identity.