To think the "Darlington Five" are being treated incredibly badly in order to indulge a bloke

Ah lots of links to read, thanks. I’d not heard of that.

Of course we refuse to see trans women as they identify. Because they're men. Irrespective of whatever drugs or surgeries they have. Just because they believe themselves to be something doesn't mean that the rest of the world also has to indulge in that belief. No men, regardless of his "feelings" should be in women's single sex spaces

It's almost as if we didn't know that we were being paid lip service too...

I just find myself getting distracted by his penis .. sorry her penis.

I have to be honest.

No one can look at a person with balls and a dangling willy and think ‘ah a woman’. It really is emperor’s new clothes stuff. Especially when they are discussing getting their gf pregnant. I would love to know in what way they thought of themselves as a woman.

That isn’t to say that I don’t sympathise with trans people who want to quietly live their lives and interfere in others as little as possible.

The good thing is society is gradually rowing back from this view and, regardless of what you think of Trump, the U,S will lead the way and, if we have any sense, we will follow. Otherwise, we risk a Farage government.

I suspect a year ago this post would have been deleted. I suspect today it will stand. But we shall see if MN has moved with the times.

This is bonkers. Time to revert back to the old time matrons who ran the places and didn't take any messing around.

Exactly @MrBungle. Men are not threatened by women. It actually undermines the point if women mob a male space, because then the men say “look we don’t care so what’s your problem?”

I constantly argue this with my dh who thinks he is discriminated against for being “white mc and male.” He has no clue what it’s like to experience life feeling afraid and uncomfortable, he doesn’t appreciate that that is the norm for many women. He talks about women using inappropriate sexual and sexist language about men at work, but he doesn’t understand that whilst the crude language should be disciplined, it doesn’t tap into a fear in the same way.

I totally understand that some transwomen also feel afraid . But their rights to feel safe don’t trump mine.

Bloody nhs needs to sort itself out.

I probably wouldn't, partly out of concern for my own safety, partly because men's toilets are grim, partly out of respect for men's privacy and dignity.

However, I have in the past said that if we can't get men to support women's right to single sex spaces, the nuclear option would be for women to start rinsing their mooncups out in the men's toilets and see how quickly the men start demanding that everyone uses the correct facilities for their sex. Because I imagine a lot of bearded he/him wokebros' commitment to being kind only extends as far as it doesn't have a negative effect on men.

Most, but by no means all, men would not care. Maybe 20-25% would. And the basics are women can’t rape men, so it’s inherently not a good comparison.

I thought the TRA argument was that if someone was behaving inappropriately it should be dealt with. Here the person in question is behaving inappropriately... so of course the women are told to put up and shut up.

NCforGCstuff

Google "Mumsnet man Friday".

So I understand the basic issues and agree with the Darlington nurses.

But I want to ask if women (not these specific nurses in this specific case) would ever say ‘ok, men/trans women in the women’s changing room is fine. For the next hour I, (a woman) am a trans man and I and my ten friends shall go into the men’s loo or changing room and behave as if I belong there’. So eg go to John Lewis with some friends, take your jumpers or coats and try them on in the men’s changing room to take up the spaces, cause a bit of a problem. Or go to the men’s loo and use the cubicles, let a queue form. Would or have women ever done that? Is it a good idea, and why or why not?

This is not about John Lewis or Darlington, I just used that as an example as it’s already been mentioned in the post.

Testing NC works

When both major parties agree on something, you have a rare thing indeed

Assume @fthemkidsandfyoutoo will not be back to tell us how lesbians can have lady penis.

I was wondering if there was an update on this case and found this.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/24782410.tories-declares-support-darlington-nurses-changing-room-row/ www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/24782410.tories-declares-support-darlington-nurses-changing-room-row/]]]]

Because trans women aren't as they identify. They are men .

And equating lesbians with trans women is grossly offensive.
Lesbians are women, entitled to privacy and safe women's spaces.

Well yes...this is exactly the issue. Transwomen aren't women and we don't see them as women. Lesbians are irrelevant to this conversation.

The colleague in question is male, like all other males.

He was prancing around in the women's changing rooms with his knob visible, talking about how he was trying to get his partner pregnant, FFS.

TW are men.

Lesbians are women.

I've shared plenty of changing rooms with lesbians with no problems whatsoever.

Do I feel comfortable being required to strip in front of a male work colleague? No and are you insane?

Well done to these women for having the courage to take on the NHS and I hope the court throws the book at this TW and whoever in HR thought this was a good idea.

The post by themkids is hilarious. To use a JKR analogy, it’s like when Voldemort’s silencing charm doesn’t work any more.

you are quite right @fthemkidsandfyoutoo - we do refuse to see trans identified males as women. I know you’ve said that in an attempt to shock and shame, but we won’t be bullied any more. We won’t indulge men at our own expense. Women want our stuff back.

Sometimes, when the world’s trans-stupidity gets too much for me, I have to dive into Mumsnet and take a deep drink of sanity, strength and humour.

Thanks, all you ordinary hard-working women, for taking a bit of time to reaffirm reality. We all need each other. One day all this bullshit will be in the past, and our grandchildren will be wondering why the world went mad …

Its difficult to see a trans woman as a woman when they are openly discussed impregnating their female partner... there is no reason why this trans woman couldn't get changed alone. It is in no way comparable to changing next to a lesbian woman - who doesn't have male genitalia. I would be so uncomfortable with this. It doesn't mean I hate trans people or don't accept them - I don't want to be undressed next to a penis at work- regardless of who it belongs to.

That poster was two and a half months late to the thread and misses the most crucial information about the case.

Women don't behave like this. Because they can't.

Also why ARE women are supposed to ignore inappropriate conduct because of how someone identifies?

And finally, I'm sure someone will eventually pull up the stats on offending rates comparing men to women. And then transitioning male to other males.

They make for grim reading. Statistically, lesbians don't pose anywhere near the same issue.

Madness.

Any male demanding to be allowed to use female spaces is acting inappropriately

this is about power and many will get a sexual kick from this

I’m not surprised we have come so far and yet we have to be put back in place every now and then by men who want control