To be deflated by the total indifference to harm being normalised on maternity wards

Time and time again I hear this. I'd say it seems at least half of all women I speak to have been told they're not in labour/not ready to push bla bla. You'd think they would learn by now to actually listen to their patients! I had the same thing. Was labouring for hours and hours with no pain relief, being told I wasn't even in active labour! As my baby was b2b it didn't perhaps appear like they were proper contractions. But these were older experienced midwives FFS!

I had an ok time giving birth at Telford in the peak of the problem period. Largely because (1) my husband is a medical professional and therefore very capable of advocating for me with no risk of squeamishness and (2) I was lucky.

1st birth I got sent home as not in labour and gave birth about 5 hours later with ventouse and baby had the cord wrapped around her foot. After I got home from the first visit there was some blood coming, so we went back in, hung around the waiting area and my waters went with meconium in them as the midwife finally got around to checking me, discovering I was 8-9cm dilated about 90 minutes after being "not in labour". If less pushy, I think that could have gone pretty wrong... but we got away with it and once accepted as being in labour and transferred to consultant led the experience was ok.

2nd child, induced due to growth scans (for low pappA) suggesting large child (just under 95th centile consistently) plus needing ventouse for 9th centile 1st plus some reduced movements. Labour followed a similar pattern to first with labour pain with little dilation followed by rapid dilation. Despite being on the induction ward, low staff levels (senior midwife also assigned to showing the review team around the ward) meant I wasn't assessed as in labour until 8cm, plus a fair amount of blood coming - difficult to get hold of staff and again having a competent advocate who speaks medical was pretty vital, plus of course being educated and sounding posh myself, which sadly does help...

Post labour the lack of pain relief, lack of opportunity for sleep and the expectation of lifting baby when you feel barely able to move is pretty standard, and the reason so many women want their partners around, hoping to have someone focussed on them rather than 6 -10 women and children to enable them to eat, go to the toilet (definitely a bit of a mission at that point in proceedings) and maybe get a bit of sleep.

Some of us do think about it, are not apathetic and so decided not to have children. Considering the falling birth rate you would think they would want to improve maternity services.

A lot of the midwives (on birthing wards, not so much the antenatal appointments) treat you like they think you're a silly young girl who doesn't know anything, even in your 30s. I knew I was well into labour with DS and they said no way, not with a first baby. They left me contracting away on the antenatal ward, saying they'd check me 8 hours after my induction pessary. Well, 5 hours after said pessary I was holding DS, having basically had to give birth in a side cupboard when I lied to say movements had slowed and they realised I was fully dilated. 2 hours before birth they'd made me walk down to
the canteen for my sausage and mash!

I was absolutely a victim of "At least he's healthy." And the birthing centre I transferred to for breastfeeding help were so so good that in the end it erased a lot of the bad feeling at the time.

I shudder to think what would've happened to my twins if I didn't demand an elective c section. Aftercare was awful. Treated like a nuisance.

I remember no1 baby (she's now 27)
The midwife had a right go at me for not phoning to let them know I was on my way in
I had rang-9 times but nobody picked up
They left me,19 years old,scared to death on a bed to labour alone
I next saw them when I pressed the buzzer to say I wanted to push
She came marching in,started telling me that I was 'nowhere near ready to push' and with that dd was born
The cord was round her left hand and her nail tore me
She didn't tell me this,she just spread my legs and started sewing
On the ward,I tried my hardest to breastfeed but didn't have a clue what I was meant to be doing
Asked for help-nothing
They where more bothered about those crap bounty bags
And this woman (I don't know who she wa,she could have been a midwife,a cleaner or a random woman off the street for all I know) came stomping up to me as I was tearfully giving dd a bottle,and started screaming at me to 'breastfeed or your a shite mother' and 'fucking white women!'
She then slapped my arm and marched off
Same woman picked her up and walked off with her (I have no idea where she took her) and I last saw her when I was asleep a few hours later-she woke me up by Proding me in the hip-right on the spot where I'd had an injection (I'm blood group o- so had to have it)

I didn't know I was pregnant with no3 until 6 days before I gave birth
A long story short,I gave birth stood up on the landing with a friend and dd (then aged 3) as my accidental birthing partners
The midwife that came out made it clear she hated being hauled out to see me and made it clear she thought I was in inconvenience to her-she told my mother this and I overheard
She did the barest of the minimum and fucked off leaving me with the ambulance men
Got to hospital and was left for 16 hours on the labour ward with baby ds in an incubator as his temp had dropped (while the midwives where rude and treated me as in inconvenience)
I asked if I could buy a cup of tea from somewhere and was told 'no,get your family to bring one in'
No food or drink until I got home 17 hours after giving birth-I'd given birth early in the morning so I'd gone over 24 hours with nothing

It's a joke-when I tried to complain,they 'lost my notes' and couldn't help any further

Exactly.
I didn't die. .but I must have cost the NHS and absolute fortune in medications and doctors appointments and (in the first few years post birth) psychiatric and Psychological support.

It’s absolutely awful!

I had a traumatic birth and a poorly baby and we were booted out within 24 hours of a complex C-Section. I will never have another child, I can’t face the awful care and neglect and complete minimising of my experience as I was told by countless people including professionals ‘ahhh well at least baby is well now and thriving’, as if we should just be grateful to both leave hospital alive.

Whats sad is almost all expectant mothers I know now go into hospital to give birth fully expecting a terrible time. This is not ok. I honestly don’t know how it can be fixed though. The whole system is broken.

The "you didn't die" attitude is ridiculous, because the fact is that most people of course won't die, but could have. And often end up with life-altering conditions. Let alone wider societal effects such as a decreased birth rate.

I'm not anti-intervention - quite the opposite. But I was persistently treated as a sheet of information by health staff, and they were unwilling to address the actual information I was telling them.

If they'd listened, they could have made the right interventions in a more safe fashion for me and my son.

Many women have that having vaginal births. And having emergency c-sections.

And the cost to the NHS shouldn't even be a consideration - most women having babies are young and fit and have never cost the NHS much otherwise - before (or in my case, since - I had a vaginal birth but it could have easily got very nasty).

There was also an article in the Times today about women having gynaecological procedures without anaesthetic.

It is outrageous and all seems to stem from some sort of Old Testament viewpoint that women are "unclean" and shouldn't be having sex anyway - even to have babies.

Not offering anaesthetic is no doubt because (a) it's cheaper and (b) the staff don't need to hang around as long. However, it's not just women's "bits" - they also try it on with things like an endoscopy.

We wouldn't expect someone to have a tooth out without having an injection first - but are supposed to endure pain for other things and especially women.

We've been talking about poor maternity care on MN since before I joined a good 15 years ago. It's bloody tiring saying the same thing over and over.

@Klingfilm exactly- having to lie in a pool of your own blood and try to clean it up yourself after major surgery, being denied painkillers because staff are too busy to answer buzzers for hours on end or it's 'not their job' - is unacceptable regardless of staff shortages and shouldn't be tolerated, not that the more serious failings in care should be either but as you say they don't even try to fix the easy stuff. It's like being in a third world country despite paying ridiculous amounts of tax for the privilege.

You would think it was less controversial to say - why can't we get the basic bits right? Like being clean and well fed and taken to the toilet at the right time? If we could do that it would be a start.

This. When I tell other women IRL about my shocking experience giving birth on the NHS they just kind of shrug and say oh well it's understaffed, underfunded, they are doing their best, at least your baby was fine etc. I'll never understand the general level of tolerance people in the UK have towards sub standard healthcare, and the reluctance to criticise the NHS (other than 'it needs more funding' - no, it doesn't, it needs massive reform). I also went for an elective c section as according to my many friends that are doctors in the NHS that was the least dangerous option.

They will say they have other roles to do, staffing, reports, datix, etc the managing of a unit and don't get me wrong, there is a vast amount of management. I also think sometimes they have been "hands off" for such a long time they do lack confidence in doing the actual work, they certainly haven't kept up with the documentation. So no I don't think they thinks its beneath them, I just think they can talk the talk and that is why they're all paid far more than the staff on the floor!

Very interesting. Why do you think they don't 'get their gloves on'? Do they just think it's beneath them? I had one really good midwife who was incredibly 'on it'. I think she may have saved my life as it was her who spotted that I had sepsis very early. She told me she was extremely cautious with everything as she'd worked in the UAE where there is, I assume, private healthcare and a massive culture of litigation. I absolutely don't for one minute blame the vast majority of the individual staff but I do think the overall culture of the NHS has become shockingly lacking in care for individuals.

All what will happen is another post will be made probably at b7 or b8 labelled safety midwife, or engagement midwife, so another midwife off the floor will be promoted into that slot, not replaced on the ground and another layer of management who will add more documentation to the mix.

I have been lucky. My first son became distressed and was dealt with very quickly. It did require forceps, which was brutal, but he was delivered safely. My second birth went like a dream, but I had a first degree tear, which i really wanted stitched and was told twice it was normal and would heal back together. It didn't.

It sounds really trivial compared to others who receive far worse birth injuries, but my first birth was a 2nd degree episiotomy that was stitcused up and healed so much better. The midwives just dismissed it as normal, but I don't think it is OK to not stitch if therusis a tear, no matter how small in their eyes. Five years on I don't think it is worth raising a comaint and wish I was more insistent at the time. I think if a doctor checked me over they would have stitched it.

If you want to look at another scandal, look at use of Physician Associates. If these end up on maternity wards it will get worse.

I don't think there's a single answer to this question. In no particular order:

1. It's cultural - labour and childbirth is "supposed" to be awful, and we're "supposed" to grin and bear it because we get a beautiful baby at the end of it. See also "you chose to have a baby".

2. Although lots of us have unpleasant stories around childbirth, other than in the worst cases, they have a tendency to fade over the years because your attention gets caught up fighting for all the other things your child might need (I'm speaking from the perspective of having neurodivergent DC and the absolute shitshow of care that's available for them).

3. We know the NHS is on its knees. Stories and experiences of dire care in any sector of the NHS are sadly commonplace - maternity, mental health, even cancer care.

4. Misogyny - both internalised and societal. I think misogyny in society is so rife that we unwittingly absorb many of the messages and don't even realise that we've done so. For example, look at the kudos that is attached to a "natural" labour with no pain relief. Women compete for top honours for bearing the most pain with no complaint. I don't know any other sector of healthcare - ie/healthcare that men use - where people have bragging rights for enduring pain. This loops back to point 1) re cultural expectations.

5. Women are fighting SO many battles. We're currently fighting men to stay out of our sports and our bathrooms, FFS. Our safety and our rights aren't assured in so many arenas, and we have a very, very long way to go before we reach any semblance of equality. It's not that no one cares about maternity care, it's just there's a finite supply of energy and time.

I have been really shocked at the sheer level of senior manager roles in maternity, when you compare it to say ICU.
We have a director of midwifery, then an assistant director of midwifery, 3 assistant directors, god knows how many lead midwives, none are clinical, all go on saying they can and do turn their hands to clinical when needed, but there is never any evidence of them doing so!

"Last week 5 midwives, all senior, b7 and above, only 1 working clinically, were discussing lack of midwives to look after labouring women, why don't one of them get a pair of bloody gloves on, they all say they jump in when necessary, but they don't!

This is what makes me soo angry about the NHS, the attitude of these people on very good salaries - so much waste, arrogance and entitlement.
And that's the staff!
Senior management - even worse.
I have a close friend working in an NHS department in Special Measures, yet their SL staff away day consisted of a stay at a 5 star spa hotel.
Why can't they just meet in the offices that taxpayers are already paying for?!!

I'm appalled but not surprised by the report Op.
But I fail to see how NHS paying out loads negligence claims helps.
In fact fear of litigation is one of the things putting people off working in maternity services (where the biggest % of claims are).
It's part of a cover up, NDA culture which is making the NHS worse, as well as more expensive for us all.
Plus, your friend is not qualified to 'tell everyone that c-sections are safest.' She encounters a particular sub section of a complex patient group, not generalisable to all birthing women.

Well of course her view will be skewed, she is a lawyer specialising in these cases, she will only ever see ladies who's care has not been up to standard! Can you not understand that?

@VesperLind well your friend is a fool!

Spinal anaesthesia, catheterised, lay in bed for a min of 6 hours after, major surgery, increased risk of infection, cost of surgery to the NHS, increased risk to baby due to not going through labour.