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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To report friend for fraud?

172 replies

Bbttrr · 13/09/2024 22:19

NC as outing.

Friend "A" is working cash in hand whilst claiming benefits. Flaunts her outings, holidays, purchases etc online constantly. Openly advertises her cash in hand work on social media. Claims a healthy sum each month in benefits whilst living in a 1/4+ mil house.

Would IBU to report her?

OP posts:
firef1y · 14/09/2024 12:00

How do you know she hasn't registered as self employed and doesn't declare her income??
I'm self-employed and do to the nature of what I do, I get paid in cash and I'm not above VAT level. I record and declare every penny in both income and expenses and am still entitled to UC (I'm just starting out, hoping to earn enough to come off in next couple years). I also advertise my business all over SM.

HebburnPokemon · 14/09/2024 11:58

Some benefits are non-means tested.

Report. You have nothing to lose.

Maria1979 · 14/09/2024 11:50

I understand you OP. I made friends with a mum from school since our children liked playing together. I really liked her and over a glass of wine she spilled the beans about her only paying 200£ per month for a newly constructed 3 bedroom appartment because she gets housing benefits for her and her two DC. She works full time but only declares part time (cash in hand) and her boyfriend works cash in hand only so they get lots of benefits. That explained how to me her quite extravagant spending and outings. I was irked because we hardly ever go to a restaurant because my DH works and I'm a Sahm (SEN DC).

Shakirasma · 14/09/2024 11:35

If you've got the guts to stand face to face with your so called friend in front of your friendship group, look her in the eye and tell her what you've done, then absolutely go for it. Report her knowing you've got the moral high ground.

However if you plan to dob her in on the sly, then keep schtum when the fallout hits, nah, fuck off.

ohfook · 14/09/2024 11:33

No. People who take government money to subsidise paying their employees below minimum wage whilst increasing their own wealth substantially, people find smart ways to move their millions of pounds around to avoid paying tax, companies who use U.K. resources and tax avoidance schemes and people that took millions of pounds to provide the government with non-existent ppe are the real benefit cheats.

cryinglaughing · 14/09/2024 11:31

I pay my employee cash in hand. It is all above board, my accountant runs her payroll and it is in our annual accounts 🤷🏻‍♀️
She also gets UC, that too is above board, she has given them her pay slips.

Sometimes things aren't always as they seem.

bifurCAT · 14/09/2024 11:28

Do it. Some people milk the system. Hard working, honest people have to pay for them, so don't feel guilty. You're supporting her lifestyle.

Friend or not.

Trainerstrainers · 14/09/2024 11:10

Would you rather she lived in a tent?

Why are the options only current house or a tent?

Argh110 · 14/09/2024 10:58

@Bbttrr i’d focus on my own life personally

Argh110 · 14/09/2024 10:57

PureBoggin · 13/09/2024 22:26

Well you are obviously not her "friend" and calling a £250000 house a 1/4 of a million pound house is disingenuous. But you can do what you want.

@PureBoggin it is 1/4 of a million though?

sofasofa42 · 14/09/2024 10:57

Personally I would actually. I mean it's massively nosey and probably a dick move and I wouldn't ask this place for permission.
Is there some kind of quick whistle blower thing online? I probably would just find it grating and put her name forward for investigation.
I strongly agree with the benefits system and people cheating it I take personally,
However, you won't get much help from anyone on here. I think do what you think is right and don't ask Mumsnet to sense check your morals.

BobbyBiscuits · 14/09/2024 10:46

Would you rather she lived in a tent?
She's not trying to hide it so she'll be found out soon enough. If she's working for an employer it's them you should report to HMRC.
But what proof to you actually have other than social media. Some people do lie on there you know?
I certainly wouldn't report anyone unless they had wronged me very very severely. I wouldn't do it out of jealousy.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 14/09/2024 10:26

SaffronsMadAboutMe · 13/09/2024 22:32

I'm always baffled at the Mumsnet definition of 'friend'.

It normally means someone you want to report on the sly, or someone you can't speak to.

Or even both.

TBH on MN ‘friend’ often means something more like ‘acquaintance’.

Anyone posting like the OP nearly always gets told to MYOB, but if I knew for certain that someone was committing benefit fraud, I’d report them.

Someone will now tell me that the number of cases are incredibly small, but I can never see that argument. By definition, the only cases definitely known of, are those which have already been proved. And if most people are like those on here who say MYOB, there are probably a good many that go unreported, let alone investigated by very likely insufficient staff.

LittleBitAlexisLaLaLaLaLa · 14/09/2024 10:16

As others have said:

a) you’re not her friend
b) claiming benefits and working are not mutually exclusive
c) why and how do so many people on these posts/thread know so much about the incomes of their friends and acquaintances? I know nothing about the incomes of people I know other than my husband

Kurokurosuke · 14/09/2024 09:55

Thanks! Might buy this then 😅

Holding my hands firmly up to really only knowing South East prices… which are bordering on criminal! 😳 Consider me schooled

ShiningforLeeBertie · 14/09/2024 09:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

That's not true at all, as people continue to grt away with it, they start getting all blasé about it, and they do start sharing details with others.

I would say a large percentage of the cases I've investigated are because people can't keep quiet and start showing off.

SerendipityJane · 14/09/2024 09:42

Surely trickle down economics mean we all see the benefit of this persons spending ?

We had an entire "fiscal event" predicated on it 2 years ago.

sleepyscientist · 14/09/2024 09:08

@Uricon2 it's not that unusual up north. Try Cleveland or parts of County Durham

www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/140890865

NotSmallButFunSize · 14/09/2024 08:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Yes they know all the ins and outs yet don't know what their own husband earns😂

Uricon2 · 14/09/2024 08:41

Bbttrr · 13/09/2024 22:32

It's a 5 bed detached house, which the tax payer is contributing towards.

She is more than happy to share she's getting benefits with her friendship group she has no filter, to her it's a joke.

Fascinated to know where this 5 bed detached 250K house is.

ETA Thanks @Gorgonemilezola !

Trainerstrainers · 14/09/2024 08:34

@Gorgonemilezola How can people be unaware that house prices are different around the country. Heck, some have hardly seen any growth in the last few decades. And I say that as a 2nd gen immigrant Londoner who hasn’t travelled round the UK that much!

Trainerstrainers · 14/09/2024 06:26

jus saying ... but if that's how you choose to live your life 🤷‍♀️ guaranteed it will come back and bite you on the ass, grasses are universally regarded as the lowest of the low by people who move in sketchy circles. But if you want to be referred to as the coppers nark for the rest of your life - go for it.

Err peados tend to be seen as lower & it’s not like she’s grassing up a friend for armed robbery or murder. Plus life isn’t a Guy Ritchie movie & it’s a good thing to grass your friend up if they committed murder or child abuse. But you obviously disagree 🤔

kkloo · 14/09/2024 03:28

Are you also going to ditch her as a friend?
Or just report her and carry on being friends? That would be really odd!

lillkim500 · 14/09/2024 03:11

Argh - the 'magic money tree' cliche, please you know that's bollox right? There literally is a magic money tree, how do you think money is made? you've swallowed the biggest lie politicians come
out with, a countries finances aren't like your personal bank account, Politicians say this because many people don't know what money actually is and where it comes from and that suits them.

Money is meaningless - cash, notes, coins and digital money (numbers in a computer) are nothing but paper, metal and numbers in a computer. Money is simply a representation of wealth. The global currency that every country uses is called FIAT currency, which means it is not not backed by any commodity whatsoever. Until the 70s the Gold Standard was used, the US Dollar was chosen after WW2 (because it was most stable) and it was convertible to gold bullion - this was called the Bretton Woods system - but the US ditched this in 1971 followed by every other globally trading country.

From this date money was backed by nothing, well it was backed by the government saying yes this bit of paper is worth £20 or whatever, backed by nothing more than a promise to pay. FIAT money has no intrinsic value at all. It is simply a promise to pay, the government issues bank notes and says this £20 is worth £20 and we all agree and trust the promise and thats how money pays for things. Money is really an IOU, its not related to gold in a bank safe or anything else other than the promise that government guarantees it’s worth the value stated and we agree. Thats why bank notes have ‘I promise to pay the bearer the sum of ..’ printed on them, they are a promise to pay.

In the UK the Bank Of England makes the bank notes that are in circulation just like that, it prints it and the government promises its value. The Bank of England is owned by the government on behalf of the the country, you and me. They magic money out of a printing press and promise its worth what it says it's worth. So that is the first magic money tree - but what about inflation you say, the government can't just keep endlessly printing money? No it can't because money only has value if some people have it and some people don't - you can only be rich if some people are poor, we can't all be rich that makes money meaningless (we'd have to come up with a society based on sharing without cash, of which many have tried to do in the past none ended well). The government controls the supply of money into the economy to keep this system of moving money around going.

But the governments magic money tree is not the only way money is magicked out of thin air it's actually only 3% of money that is created. The rest is made by private banks, they make the majority of all the money thats in the economy out of nothing - it is digital or electronic money that only exists as digits on a computer.

Many people think banks operate by taking your money as a deposit and then lend it to someone else to make a profit. That is not how banks make money, they don’t lend the money you deposit to anyone. Banks actually make money every time they issue a loan. They do this by simply typing a number on a keyboard - say a thousand pounds - a person receives a loan by the bank issuing a new balance of £1000 by issuing it as line in their account. No money is taken from another account it is just made as a digital entry by tapping it on a keyboard.

The bank recognises this new £1000 entry because it expects to get the £1000 repaid. The bank ‘promises’ you can get the money in cash from a cash machine, or send digital money to buy things - its a digital IOU.

The bank charges interest on the loan, by doing this it creates money out of nothing - the money created never existed before the interest was drawn and it wasn’t produced by making anything it just appeared, like magic.

The bank keeps the interest as profit and uses it as capital. The new money that was typed into your bank account then disappears when its paid back, it’s cancelled out, destroyed - disappearing as mysteriously as it appears.

This is how banks actually create money, this is how money is made and where it comes from. So why does a bank take your money at all if it doesn’t use it for loans? They are not particularly desperate for your money, but they have a use for it. The bank uses customers deposits as security in case people want to take out lots of money at once, if literally everyone did this at once it wouldn’t be to give them their money it would cause ‘a run’ because it doesn’t hold all that money, but it counts on not all its customers taking all their money out at once - it can at a reasonable level provide for those wanting to make big withdrawals.

You may come across the argument that the the bank created money is not money in the same way money is created by the Bank Of England and that it is in fact credit, this is false. Some politicians and civil servants will argue this - but it isn’t credit because all credit comes with an element of risk. The Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS) backs £85,000 for individual accounts - if the back goes bust, the government will give you your money back. The government will compensate you and help banks if they can’t provide your money that you deposit - its risk free so cannot be regarded as credit. The Government prints money and borrows it through selling gilts (bonds) to banks and investors this is how it borrows money, this how it paid for Covid, bails out the banks and spends money needed because not enough is provided by taxation - this is what is known as the budget deficit and public borrowing.

In a way the government makes money from nothing too, from printing it and borrowing by selling bits of paper - gilts. However there is one big difference, the government needs to pay back with interest the money it borrows. Can you see where this is going - yes it prints more gilts and sells then to banks - it's what we've been doing since the 1600s - we have to have a deficit it is required and it will never not exist, if it did no new money would be created and we'd probably all start bartering instead. The credit crunch, when Northern Rock was bailed out by the government was the country not going bankrupt- because the government won't let it and the government is what backs all money by promising that is what it's worth.

Apparently 85% of the UK population do not know or are only partly aware of this, including politicians (worryingly) and most of the media. This understanding needs to become commonplace, not least because it would resolve the widespread angst present in the population presented with a myriad of serious global challenges that seem insurmountable. It would also mean the continued political decisions that cause them and the misinformation and manipulation by the rich and powerful could be effectively challenged.

These facts are not secret, the information is freely available and can be found. But yet the question is not asked, it is assumed - the fact that it isn’t is to the benefit of the group of people already rich and continually getting richer and to the detriment of everyone else and the future of the very planet. Sir Mervyn King the Governor of the Bank of England 2003 - 2013 is quoted correctly explaining that “When banks extend loans to their customers, they create money by crediting their customers’ accounts.”

Private banks make astronomical amounts of money, it is how money in our economy is created (helped by Government). This could be good, but Banks are private businesses mostly owned by investors who hold shares in the bank (with exceptions ie credit unions)- their reason for existence is to make more and more money for these shareholders. Banks invest in the things that provide the highest return - which are primarily the financial markets and property. They don’t invest in small businesses or community projects things that are actually needed and useful because there is no incentive to do so.

Because our current financial system is dependant on debt, borrowing from banks to create more money - it pushes more and more people into poverty while continuing to make a tiny group of people richer. The more loans that are taken on, the more profit is generated : More loans, more debt, more money. If nobody went into debt, there would be virtually no money in the economy - the system depends on debt, the electronic money that banks create. Every pound coin that is generated requires interest paid on it and because its the people or businesses who need or have to borrow money, the 99% of the population. Money is transferred to the 1% of people who don’t need to borrow money the very rich. Income and wealth is sucked up by the wealthy minority and the gap between the wealthy and the rest of us gets bigger and bigger. This is why so called ‘trickle down’ theory is impossible under the current system, it doesn’t allow it, so as long as the money we use is dependent on interest being paid by the majority the wealth disparity will keep increasing.

The beneficiaries of wealth created by debt get richer and more powerful. They steadily own more of the assets in the country and the world, this is why corporations get bigger and we lose more smaller and diverse businesses that we need. Its the reason the same shops and businesses appear everywhere you go, its the reason chain stores and food franchises have replaced high streets, its the reason everything is getting more expensive, its the reason transport, housing, healthcare and social care is slowly disappearing.

A system that depends on debt creation from a majority of the population has to continue to make that majority poorer it has to in order to create more money. If it didn’t there would be no new money in the economy, which means less spending, fewer jobs and on and on… Currently we are stuck with two choices; more money and more debt or less debt and less money.

A country can't go bankrupt like you say, because it borrows money from itself - it is both the borrows and lender. You can't go bankrupt from lending yourself all your money. Government borrowing has been in existence in the UK since 1694 and so therefore has the defect. The government borrows money by issuing bonds known as gilts which are IOUs promising to pay back the money with interest. The government doesn’t just print more money, but the gilts that it issues are just bits of paper that are an IOU, a promise to pay back the money - with interest.

We can always pay for anything we or the government want to, money won't run out. But money has to be controlled in terms of who has it and who doesn't - and the economy is based on most people not having enough as it's dependant on debt, so private banks can create a profit so be whole system can keep going. The government and banks just control the flow of money, like a river - with locks and weirs. It's just the system is really unfair and means most people struggle while a few people get rich.

A country can't go bankrupt, well yes it can - but not in the way you or me.can if the UK government is bankrupt it means the whole global finance system has collapsed and in this case we really, really are f**cked and will be too busy growing our own food and fighting roaming gangs to worry.

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