To be surprised how posh most lawyers are?

eggtat · 2024-09-13T17:59:01+00:00

I grew up in a mining area in the north east. Not a poor background but parents never had much money. I was the clever kid in school, worked my socks off and got a law degree from cambridge. Then moved to London for work. I thought that law firms would be full of people like me and some posh people. In my office I’d say a an overwhelming majority of people come from what I’d consider a posh background - parents who are professors, diplomats, barristers, partners at law firms, senior accountants etc. People who grew up privileged, good private schools, academic households, then onto a top uni.

KimberleyClark · 28/10/2024 11:57

A relative wanted to be a barrister in the early 80s. Middle class but not posh. State school, London university rather than Oxbridge, first class degree. Got called to the bar. Couldn’t get a pupillage in the field he wanted - chancery rather than criminal. There was so much of the old boy old school tie network. He became a solicitor eventually and worked for a City law firm.

gretathegremlin · 28/10/2024 11:41

Pumpkinseedling · 28/10/2024 11:17

Reading thread with interest.. Lawyers usually marry lawyers /barristers & the circle continues. Their children often also decide to follow in their parents footsteps.

Some lawyers.

Nothing "usually" about it.

Pumpkinseedling · 28/10/2024 11:17

Reading thread with interest.. Lawyers usually marry lawyers /barristers & the circle continues. Their children often also decide to follow in their parents footsteps.

Leafstamp · 14/09/2024 19:53

Agree @Verydemure !

Classic! 😂

Verydemure · 14/09/2024 17:21

BoxOffice · 14/09/2024 17:10

@MotherofAllMatriarchs hobbies I’ve come across within my City lawyer friends & acquaintances include

running
cycling
mountain biking
surfing
snow sports
water sports
Theatre & performing arts
animals
cooking
DJ’ing
playing in a rock band
Writing comedy
Writing horror novels

Literally a diverse bunch

😂 this cracked me up! You are basically describing a Neilson/ Mark Warner holiday.

if you’d put bingo/keeping pigeons/darts/watching eastenders I’d have maybe taken the point

BoxOffice · 14/09/2024 17:10

@MotherofAllMatriarchs hobbies I’ve come across within my City lawyer friends & acquaintances include

running
cycling
mountain biking
surfing
snow sports
water sports
Theatre & performing arts
animals
cooking
DJ’ing
playing in a rock band
Writing comedy
Writing horror novels

Literally a diverse bunch

BoxOffice · 14/09/2024 17:05

@Veebee89 our hobbies as a family are cycling, mountain biking, bike packing, hiking, (open water) swimming, paddle boarding, gardening, the great outdoors etc so Dulwich wouldn’t offer us the lifestyle we love.
not saying there is anything wrong with Dulwich and my friend who lives there loves it

LoobyDoop2 · 14/09/2024 15:57

But if you did a law degree- particularly at Cambridge- you must have already known that, because you were surrounded by them there. I don’t blame you, I changed my mind about being a lawyer when I realised that the vast majority of my fellow law students were awful, and I’d spend my working life with them. They were all either little rich kids, spending daddy’s money and not caring because he’d give them a job anyway, or they were uber-swots competing over who could rack up the most hours in the library.

wickedwine · 14/09/2024 15:32

NoWordForFluffy · 14/09/2024 14:08

It would've worked far better in person. It simply didn't translate as a joke in black and white on the page.

There were continued digs from her afterwards about a lack of sense of humour though, which were unnecessary. Just because a 'joke' fell flat due to how it was made, doesn't mean the people reading it as rude are humourless. It would've been better to apologise that it fell flat than carry on digging into a hole, IMO.

ETA: I imagine some barristers do think that as well though, so not a stretch to take it seriously.

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A lot of solicitors are pretty good at advocacy, it helps with negotiation, but choose not to go the barrister route because the job is completely different, the transactional work is different, the work environment is different and the salary arrangements are different and court work can be slow and frustrating. Not because they lack advocacy skills.

No idea what barristers think though! Barristers used to market to us.

I think it is a shame that what was a fairly lighthearted discussion took a down turn, and I did see the humour in what was written, as I said.

Veebee89 · 14/09/2024 14:56

BoxOffice · 14/09/2024 13:44

*I’m not a lawyer but I know many lawyers socially in London and they are so homogenous it’s unreal.

All expensively educated then off to a Russell Group or Oxbridge for uni. All long for three kids (why always three?!) and a nice house in Dulwich. They enjoy renovating homes in their spare time as an outlet for their creativity.

I’m not even kidding - they’re all so incredibly similar and don’t even know each other. Good on you for breaking into such a closed world (hope that doesn’t sound patronising - it wasn’t intended like that) *

Load of rubbish! I’m a lawyer, my hobbies include mountain biking, bike packing, swimming and gardening. I have one child and love having one and don’t aspire to any more. I would hate to live in Dulwich.

My lawyer friends have a diverse range of backgrounds and interests and only one of them lives in Dulwich (she doesn’t have three kids or renovate houses though)

Dulwich is lovely! Why would you hate to live there?

Rummly · 14/09/2024 14:34

NoWordForFluffy · 14/09/2024 14:14

Bad tempered? Not really, just surprise you were so rude and expecting you to apologise, instead of doubling down. But maybe you read them as bad tempered.

See how it works?! 🤷‍♀️

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Yeah, I get how words, meaning, interpretation, ambiguity and misunderstanding work. But thanks for the tip. (The last four words were sarcastic, just to be clear. But expressed without insult or rancour - again, just to be clear.)

NoWordForFluffy · 14/09/2024 14:14

Rummly · 14/09/2024 14:12

There was no hole. Just bad tempered comments to me. Which was unfortunate. So I answered them. But not everything in life is understood as intended. 🤷‍♀️

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Bad tempered? Not really, just surprise you were so rude and expecting you to apologise, instead of doubling down. But maybe you read them as bad tempered.

See how it works?! 🤷‍♀️

MotherofAllMatriarchs · 14/09/2024 14:14

@BoxOffice these are truly my experiences with London lawyers! I accept that anecdotes do not make things universally true. In fact, I’m very pleased to hear you say this is not the case. I also accept that I’m not a lawyer so others on this thread will know better. But it’s not a ‘load of rubbish’ in that literally these are the people I know. I’m not lying! I’m just describing them! I guess the OP is talking about magic circle type firms rather than a high street solicitors and the people I know working for these firms are indeed incredibly posh! But yes, it’s just anecdata from a handful of London lawyers in their mid to late 30s. I don’t work for the Sutton Trust. I’m honestly glad that you say this is not representative.

Rummly · 14/09/2024 14:12

NoWordForFluffy · 14/09/2024 14:08

It would've worked far better in person. It simply didn't translate as a joke in black and white on the page.

There were continued digs from her afterwards about a lack of sense of humour though, which were unnecessary. Just because a 'joke' fell flat due to how it was made, doesn't mean the people reading it as rude are humourless. It would've been better to apologise that it fell flat than carry on digging into a hole, IMO.

ETA: I imagine some barristers do think that as well though, so not a stretch to take it seriously.

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There was no hole. Just bad tempered comments to me. Which was unfortunate. So I answered them. But not everything in life is understood as intended. 🤷‍♀️

NoWordForFluffy · 14/09/2024 14:08

wickedwine · 14/09/2024 14:03

I saw it was a joke as soon as you hinted as to your profession, and I'd consider it dry humour and if delivered in person deadpan I would have laughed. But, problem is, MN is now full of extremely rude, unpleasant posters with agendas, who really can be quite vile, so because it was delivered in a dry way it was misunderstood. Also the poster you aimed it at was getting a hard time from someone who I do not think was joking, so she was probably in no mood. Hope this helps. I saw the humour in it. You would have to have been very, very rude to have intended it seriously!

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It would've worked far better in person. It simply didn't translate as a joke in black and white on the page.

There were continued digs from her afterwards about a lack of sense of humour though, which were unnecessary. Just because a 'joke' fell flat due to how it was made, doesn't mean the people reading it as rude are humourless. It would've been better to apologise that it fell flat than carry on digging into a hole, IMO.

ETA: I imagine some barristers do think that as well though, so not a stretch to take it seriously.

wickedwine · 14/09/2024 14:03

Rummly · 13/09/2024 22:05

Fair enough. But it was so obviously not serious that I fail to see how anyone who uses words for a living and has any sense of context or nuance could get upset by what I wrote. Certainly I doubt any of the very many barristers and solicitors I know would have got spiky about it.

But maybe I’ve been very lucky over the years in the lawyers of all sorts that I’ve met and worked with.

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I saw it was a joke as soon as you hinted as to your profession, and I'd consider it dry humour and if delivered in person deadpan I would have laughed. But, problem is, MN is now full of extremely rude, unpleasant posters with agendas, who really can be quite vile, so because it was delivered in a dry way it was misunderstood. Also the poster you aimed it at was getting a hard time from someone who I do not think was joking, so she was probably in no mood. Hope this helps. I saw the humour in it. You would have to have been very, very rude to have intended it seriously!

BoxOffice · 14/09/2024 13:44

*I’m not a lawyer but I know many lawyers socially in London and they are so homogenous it’s unreal.

All expensively educated then off to a Russell Group or Oxbridge for uni. All long for three kids (why always three?!) and a nice house in Dulwich. They enjoy renovating homes in their spare time as an outlet for their creativity.

I’m not even kidding - they’re all so incredibly similar and don’t even know each other. Good on you for breaking into such a closed world (hope that doesn’t sound patronising - it wasn’t intended like that) *

Load of rubbish! I’m a lawyer, my hobbies include mountain biking, bike packing, swimming and gardening. I have one child and love having one and don’t aspire to any more. I would hate to live in Dulwich.

My lawyer friends have a diverse range of backgrounds and interests and only one of them lives in Dulwich (she doesn’t have three kids or renovate houses though)

Original poster

eggtat · 14/09/2024 12:13

Sago1 · 14/09/2024 09:10

What I meant was that the OP who is clearly intelligent used the word posh, yes she could have explained herself more articulately.

The word posh is a word oven used in a derogatory way but the OED definition is “stylish, luxurious, elegant, refined or upper class”.

The OP went on to say she thought her colleagues would be “ people like me”.
They are people like her, they are intelligent and have worked hard to gain a degree, they have a career in a prestigious profession.

I really dislike the use of the words, posh, common, lower class, working class etc.
I believe we are all equal but very different.

Oxbridge are taking far mor pupils from state schools so I’m sure there will be in the future hopefully a greater mix of young people entering the law profession.

lol

OP posts:

Krampers · 14/09/2024 11:29

Veebee89 · 13/09/2024 22:29

This is just not true. I’m a surgeon and so is my DH. We both went to comps, I grew up in a working class town in the north west, DH in a working class town in Yorkshire. Doctors are probably one of the most diverse professions in terms of sex, ethnicity and social class.

There are some “posh” privately educated people in medicine of course but certainly not the majority.

I never felt out of place at med school or at any stage during my training and you certainly don’t need to hide your background or adopt certain behaviours to appear polished like you seem to have to in law. Regional accents are totally normal and I think doctors at all levels are used to mixing with people from different class backgrounds. Don’t forget as surgeons most of our day is spent with theatre assistants, nurses and patients, not other consultants, and those people are from all walks of life.

There is a challenge with getting more women into surgery but that’s a whole other topic!

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Yes me too and shock horror I grew up on an inner city London council estate

Gwenhwyfar · 14/09/2024 11:13

Trainerstrainers · 13/09/2024 22:33

@Veebee89 what is not true?

Well it's definitely true that I watched that programme...

Also, saying that privately educated people are not a majority doesn't say much as they are such a small minority in society as a whole. They may still be over-represented, but I take the point that the poster thinks medicine is very diverse.

Sparklywhiteteeth · 14/09/2024 11:10

sofasofa42 · 14/09/2024 11:04

I think law is heavy going and boring and hard work. Unless you can see that pot of gold at the end through personal experience then a bright kid probably wouldn't bother .
A relative has now got to mid 50's and is mental rich but it's been a slog of hard work . His children going to university are now interested in doing law because they recognise it's an eventual route to a lot of wealth. If they hadn't personally seen that, there is no way they would countenance it. And so this will go on. Lawyers breed lawyers,

Depends on the type of law, and plenty do what they love, be it litigation or environmental. There are plenty pf jobs which are heavy going, hard work or boring. And evidentially due to uptake bright kids bother every single day.

sofasofa42 · 14/09/2024 11:04

I think law is heavy going and boring and hard work. Unless you can see that pot of gold at the end through personal experience then a bright kid probably wouldn't bother .
A relative has now got to mid 50's and is mental rich but it's been a slog of hard work . His children going to university are now interested in doing law because they recognise it's an eventual route to a lot of wealth. If they hadn't personally seen that, there is no way they would countenance it. And so this will go on. Lawyers breed lawyers,

SeaGlasses · 14/09/2024 10:52

Sago1 · 14/09/2024 09:10

What I meant was that the OP who is clearly intelligent used the word posh, yes she could have explained herself more articulately.

The word posh is a word oven used in a derogatory way but the OED definition is “stylish, luxurious, elegant, refined or upper class”.

The OP went on to say she thought her colleagues would be “ people like me”.
They are people like her, they are intelligent and have worked hard to gain a degree, they have a career in a prestigious profession.

I really dislike the use of the words, posh, common, lower class, working class etc.
I believe we are all equal but very different.

Oxbridge are taking far mor pupils from state schools so I’m sure there will be in the future hopefully a greater mix of young people entering the law profession.

The OP was making a point about social class, though. You may not like that social class exists and still determines to an extent things like what jobs school-leavers aim for, but the OP isn’t obliged to adopt that view. She simply said she was surprised that most of her colleagues at a London law firm seemed to come from a fairly uniform background of privilege when she had expected more of them to come from her type of background.

‘Posh’ isn’t necessarily derogatory, and it’s very subjective. It can just be shorthand for ‘someone I perceive as coming from a higher social class than I do.’ Posh Spice was lower-middle class, for instance, but clearly struck whoever was doing the Spice Girls branding as plausibly ‘posh’ in a way that she wouldn’t have seemed to the OP’s colleagues.

Lalalacrosse · 14/09/2024 10:46

grimupnorthLondon · 13/09/2024 19:32

I've been in city law firms (MC and now US) for 25 years and it is definitely getting posher. When I started about 25% of my trainee cohort, including me, were state school educated and many of us had regional accents. Now if I come across a trainee with a British regional accent I take notice and many more of them are from money. Our firm is now much more diverse in every sense except class/socio-economic. There are overwhelming numbers of Singaporean, Hong kong and Indian lawyers (some educated in England) but mostly from wealthy backgrounds in those countries. Even a few oligarch-kids but the British lawyers are more and more privately educated and upper middle class. More women than there used to be (although still not nearly enough in the really powerful roles). But what I'm noticing through graduate recruitment the last few years is that 'normal' British kids from backgrounds like mine (Midlands comp, first in family to go to university) have nothing like enough polish to get through the hiring process against kids who have been mixing with people like our lawyers/clients all of their lives. I really want them to succeed but even if we get some bright kids through the door they quite often are quickly demoralised by the competitive ruthlessness of the whole thing. I am torn between giving them a chance (and risking them burning out quickly) and thinking they would be better off at a smaller firm with less ambitious people. Of course ymmv and my firm is a bit notorious for being cutthroat but I think it is a depressing trend more widely..

I agree, it’s getting posher. Wasn’t great 20 years ago when I trained, and I found it a bit hard to relate to people talking about their ski holidays etc.

My feeling now from those I meet is that it’s increasingly posh. though some are faking - I learned to use the ‘right’ accent and talk about possible ‘right’ holidays…

HotCrossBunplease · 14/09/2024 10:42

Sago1 · 14/09/2024 09:10

What I meant was that the OP who is clearly intelligent used the word posh, yes she could have explained herself more articulately.

The word posh is a word oven used in a derogatory way but the OED definition is “stylish, luxurious, elegant, refined or upper class”.

The OP went on to say she thought her colleagues would be “ people like me”.
They are people like her, they are intelligent and have worked hard to gain a degree, they have a career in a prestigious profession.

I really dislike the use of the words, posh, common, lower class, working class etc.
I believe we are all equal but very different.

Oxbridge are taking far mor pupils from state schools so I’m sure there will be in the future hopefully a greater mix of young people entering the law profession.

I suspect that is not what those agreeing with you thought you meant!