To ask how to negotiate Christmas with exwife

No, they didn't. And yet mum has booked to work for that second week. Again, with no discussion. Funny how no one is talking about that...

Aaaand here we have it: Mum had them most of the time = she gets to have it her way, every time. Ex wife 'logic'. If the parenting load isn't fair for her then she needs to have a discussion about what needs to change. Not dictate and then whine about it.

Why make the kids spend Christmas somewhere they don't want to? I doubt they'll be kicking and screaming to not go, they just have an immediate preference - and unfortunately when the parents are separated, Christmases are split. That's why.

You cannot claim that he should have them whenever the ex wants and not complain about it because it's his 'moral responsibility' to parent, but at the same time claim that he has no right to expect to spend Christmas with his kids.

Why isn’t it fair? Even the OP admits the children probably want to be at their mums. Whats fair about making kids spend Christmas somewhere they don’t want to?

You say it’s not real, but neither is the parenting load. The dad has them every other weekend while the mother looks after them the vast majority of the time.

Since they haven't had this discussion with the children either, I don't think what the children want has been taken into account at all.

We will never know how the discussion would have gone if they'd raised it with her before booking their holiday. Because they didn't.

The children never having woken up on Christmas Day at theirs Dad's isn't give and take. Her bleating about stockings isn't give and take. Her declaring she has to work and therefore MUST have the children over Christmas is not give and take. When was the Dad 'asked' to have them the week after? because clearly HER plans were already in place.

Stop making excuses for her - she has been as obstructive in her stance as OP. I know it's not the popular opinion on MN.

There is give and take.

The arrangement is informal because the father of the children worked shifts. For, it sounds like, a long time.

So the conversation about accommodating her work would surly be the same. Working around her work schedule.

Op and her dp made Christmas plans without consulting the mother of his children and just assumed it would work for her. Despite everyone knowing they sort out seeing the children, informally to accommodate work.

Which parents are with often change over Christmas, where there’s no formal agreement. A conversation should have been had. It didn’t need to be round the table. Just him speaking to her about Christmas, plans, work and so on.

FWIW my SC (who are now adults) always (bar one year) had Christmas Eve and Christmas morning with their Mum.
Why? Because actually they liked it best that way round. Mum made it lovely for them and Dad was happy to have them from the evening. They shared residency 50:50 but that worked for us not to alternate at Christmas.

Do you honestly believe that even if they'd had a sit down round the table discussion beforehand it would have gone any other way? The children have never woken up on Christmas day at their dad's house. Never. Does that seem fair and equal? Does that seem like there's give and take?

It’s all very informal because up until recently my partner worked shifts

Seems like the dad was perfectly happy to chop and change at little notice because it has suits his working pattern for years.

Discussions do go both ways, yes.

That was the OP and her husband's mistake. Not having a discussion (of any kind) with her before they booked their holiday.

If she isn't minded to bend over backwards to accommodate it, they only have themselves to blame.

If she has to work between Christmas and new year then she has to work. If she doesn't have to work then it will still cost her annual leave. Why should she use her precious annual leave allowance to accommodate people who didn't even run this past her first?

There hasn't been any discussion though?

The OP and her boyfriend booked themselves a holiday then told the ex that she couldn't have the children or see them at Christmas because they were having them but that she could have them the second week.

The Ex said no I'm working

The OP is now furious that their couples holiday has been ruined. Well actually it hasn't because she is saying that their only option is to not see the children

How on earth is any of that the exs fault?

Are you the OP with a name change fail?

I'm perhaps not reading it with the same the-ex-wife-should-always-have-her-way glasses on, no.

Seems to me that's not 'all she's done'. She's upset with the fait accomoli and upset that her own isn't going to work. She wants them every Christmas and their dad can have them when it suits her because she wants to go to work. Did you read the thread? How did you miss that bit?

Discussions go both ways - and ex wives can - brace yourself - act unreasonably. Thank goodness Mumsnet is around to console them and tell them they can behave however they like.

I expect the DH is counting down the days to 2nd January .

Are you reading the same thread as everyone else?

The only thing his ex wife has done is objected to being presented with a fait accompli and expected to fall into line because he and the OP booked a holiday without even discussing Christmas with her first.

If he has t spent Christmas on his own with his kids perhaps he should do that before doing it with you and your kids. You've only been dating for two years so there shouldn't be any rush.

How are presents and things like that going to work at his parents house. Are the grandparents going to be able to give their grandkids presents and not give your kids anything.

He's still been there. Last year was just the morning yes but prior to that it's been the full day. The OP even said this because he works shifts.

Now she expects the child's mom to not see them for a whole week because they want a weeks holiday. They haven't even asked the kids what they want

If the ex is being so unreasonable about contact and the OP and her boyfriend really believe she is purposely withholding contact and they are really devastated and concerned for the children, why haven't they done something about it? Why haven't they made an order for formal contact?

Instead the OPs reply was "oh well looks like my boyfriend won't see his kids at Christmas" there are 52 weeks of the year,, does their child free holiday really need to happen in the second week of the Christmas holidays?

Incidentally things like christmas are expected to be sorted out between the parents and this won't be dictated to by the Court.

It's not 'having them for Christmas' is it?? It's a few hours.

I think booking a break away, without letting the ex know, was daft given they have an ‘adhoc’ arrangement.

You say it’s that’s way because your partner worked shifts. So it revolved around his work for quite a while. But you both (you and dp) expected plans to stay exactly the same for something 3 plus months time, even though it hasn’t the whole time they are split.

If Dp wants a more formal arrangement he needs to sort it. It appears it’s not interfering with your break. You are still going. So this is really an issue for your dp to sort out.

Read the thread you plonker!

The OP has clearly said that Dad has seen his children and spent time every Christmas with them since they've split.

Last year he had them for the Christmas morning at their house and the days before

The year before he spent the whole day with them at his exs parents house and they were still together the Christmases before that!

Why on earth did you book the holiday before discussing it with her?! It's a huge change to previous arrangements, so I don't know why you thought she'd be fine with it. Or why you would think it would be fine for the children to have an unhappy Christmas. Blaming her for not falling in with your plans is bonkers, frankly.

OMG the mental gymnastics going on here to make the ex wife completely blameless and correct is astounding.

The children have never spent Christmas with their Dad? That sounds like the ex is controlling to me but almost everyone is making excuses for it with very little information.

The ex has decided the children will spend Christmas with her and the dad can have them the week after as it fits with her work schedule and that's NOT manipulative and selfish but actually completely fine because she's the ex and therefore OK to do whatever she wants??

In order to have any fair parenting arrangements tou have to go to court? Until a court-ordered mandate is in place the ex is completely OK to have it all her way when she decides and no one has any right to any feelings about it?

The kids surely don't want to spend Christmas with their Dad? Everyone seems very certain at dads house the kids sleep on the floor of an undecorated room and there will be no presents. What on earth?

It can't be dads 'moral obligation' to have the kids whenever his ex dictates because they're his responsibility but that equality doesn't go both ways and mum is now the 'better' parent when it comes to Christmas day. Dad has a right to do Christmas however he sees fit - and that might be different to how his ex wants it to be.

In this case, if people are so sure that the ex gets to decide the Christmas schedule with no flexibility then OK, the kids are with her for Christmas but she also has to accept that OP and her ex husband are away the week after when she wants him to have them.

You are utterly and completely unreasonable, and deep down you must know it.

Having read your updates, you’re very unreasonable.

The ex is right that Yabu (you meaning you and your partner) She accommodated him every year but you are suggesting that she doesn’t see the kids for the whole week. You must know that summer holidays aren’t the same as the Christmas ones and that she may want to take them to extended family etc

It’s mind boggling that you live half an hour away but think that a whole week is fair. One week with the kids then one week away may be the perfect Christmas for you and him but you are overlooking the admitted fact that it’s not best for the kids. The kids who do one week with each parent will be doing so because of distance eg overseas - not living 30 minutes away.

If you were reasonable you’d ask for 3 or so days of the week that you wanted the kids initially then go on your holiday. Or you’d invite mum to your home Christmas morning to repay the kindness shown to your partner in the past. That way everybody gets to see the kids around Christmas and you get to go on holiday.

It’s interesting that your partner is offering to change the dates of his holiday to maximise time with the kids - says a lot about him as a father.

The kids are fine together. We are going to go to his parents house and spend Christmas Eve and Christmas Day there.

Why would your kids want to spend Christmas with people who are no relation to them? Why not have it just your own family?

So the kids mum has no partner and you want to take the kids from her for a whole week over Christmas as it suits you. How very sad for her to be all on her own. When I was a single mum even a couple of days without my children over Christmas when they were young was very tough, let alone a whole week. Also from another viewpoint, my stepson who is now grown up has also always spent Xmas day with his mum, as he’s got older he has sometimes popped to see us x mad morning, but he wants to be with him mum, that’s his choice. My husband just had to suck it up and he’s fine with it. Kids like familiarity and routine and just because the children get on with yours doesn’t mean they want to spend Xmas with them, Xmas is often about family traditions etc which your kids are jot part of.
Ive done a few bowling days with my beaded family and whilst we’ve had some nice times it can be a strain for all. As everyone does tuning differently at Xmas.
Your set up with your ex is unusual and I don’t think just because you want it that your partners ex should just fall into line, I certainly wouldn’t. Since my children have been teenagers (now adults) they have chosen where they wish to go with no pressure from me.
You do deserve some time together but you should never have booked a holiday without checking with partners ex.