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..To be mortified at the treatment of rape victims at the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre?

816 replies

TorghunKhan · 12/09/2024 16:22

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clynyky7kj9o

No women only spaces for 16 months. Basically women, RAPED women - were told they could not definitely see a woman to help them with such an awful crime, they might have to see a man in a dress, and if they objected they were to be 're eductaed' by the man in charge - a man who himself applied for, and got!! a job which was supposed to be only filled by a woman.

It's shameful, disgusting, but whats worse is how many people put up with it!! Who thought this was ok?! why did nobody do anything, or say anything FOR YEARS

Woman with head in her arms sitting on a bed

Edinburgh rape crisis centre failed to protect women-only spaces

The centre unfairly dismissed a worker who believed victims should know the sex of staff who deal with their case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clynyky7kj9o

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
RedToothBrush · 14/09/2024 17:49

IwantToRetire · 14/09/2024 17:16

He didn't lie. The organisation accept self identity (which by the way the EA doesn't) which was the attitude created by funders, and the SNP.

Also he was a political figure at the time having worked at other women support services and attempted (cant remember what exactly) to get some political position. So everyone knew his background.

So this was / is about either a complete co-operation by society to the trans agenda, or a society where intimidation is so high no one dares speak up.

Dont forget Roz Adams did not object to the inclusion of TW at ERCC. Her complaint, and the subsequent bullying was because she believed a service user should be told the truth. ie that she might be offered support by a TW. And the ERCC decided this breach of the TW privacy was more important than ensuring a victim of rape got the support she wanted, not what they wanted to force on her.

Edited

In theory transwomen aren't the problem in the sense of using the services.

The problem is concealment of sex in a vulnerable position like this.

I'm mindful that using deception to engage in sexual acts can be unlawful and there is a debate over loopholes in the law around this with calls to update the Sexual Offences Act 2023.

The CPS has some guidance around sex and deception on this subject.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/deception-gender-proposed-revision-cps-legal-guidance-rape-and-serious-sexual-offences

If you read the article it's interesting. The following being the most relevant.

Evidential considerations
The Court of Appeal in R v Justine McNally [2013] EWCA Crim 1051 determined that “depending on the circumstances, deception as to gender can vitiate consent” [27]. In McNally, the court characterised the appellant’s actions as a deliberate deception [26], rather than a failure to disclose, confirming that active deception as to gender falls within the scope of s74 of the sexual Offences Act 2003.

Whether the complainant has been deceived will require very careful examination of the evidence and consideration of all the surrounding circumstances. Prosecutors should ensure that they have sufficient material from the police in order to make this determination.

The question of deception can be considered in three stages:

  1. Has there been active or deliberate deception by the suspect? If not, the deception will not fall within the scope of s74 of the Act and consent will not be vitiated. However, if there is a deliberate deception, consider the second question.
  2. Was the complainant deceived and therefore did not consent? If so, consider the third question.
  3. Did the suspect reasonably believe the complainant consented?

1: Has there been active or deliberate deception?
If a suspect genuinely perceives their gender identity to be different to their birth assigned sex or if their gender identity is in a state of flux and/or emerging, this may be evidence there was not a deliberate deception.
The following type of evidence may assist to establish how the suspect perceived their identity:

  • The steps the suspect has taken to live consistent with their gender identity.
  • The steps the suspect has taken to acquire a new legal or administrative gender recognition.
Possession of a GRC proves that an individual has been legally recognised in their affirmed gender and is strong evidence to show that the individual is living in their affirmed gender. However, a person’s gender identity or affirmed gender is not dependent upon them obtaining a GRC and the vast majority of trans people do not obtain a GRC: see above.

How the suspect perceived their gender at the time of the offence can be a complex issue. The following matters should be borne in mind:

Gender identity can be fluid and/or emergent for some persons, particularly young persons, who may explore the nature of their identity and/or sexuality.
A person whose gender identity isn’t the same as their sex assigned at birth may express their gender through their speech, dress, gestures, mannerisms etc, without regarding this as a fabrication, a performance or a deception.

Some trans people may not always be living in their true gender identity due to safety considerations.

A person who presents as a particular gender at the time of the alleged offence may subsequently revert to their sex assigned at birth when an allegation is made against them. Any apparent reversion may be for numerous reasons including, but not limited to, pressure to conform to social norms.

On the facts of the case in McNally, the ruling that deception as to gender can vitiate consent applies to situations where a person falsely purports to be of a different gender (McNally was a girl who presented herself as a boy, using a male avatar “Scott” online). Although the courts have not addressed the point, the ruling would appear to be capable of applying broadly to include, for instance, deception as to birth gender/assigned biological sex, gender history or trans status. There is no duty to disclose gender history, but in some circumstances suspects who are living in a new gender identity at the time of the alleged offending (as opposed to falsely purporting to be a different gender), including those who have obtained a GRC, may still be capable of actively deceiving a complainant as to such matters relating to their gender. For example, where a suspect falsely asserts that their gender identity is the same as their birth gender/assigned biological sex; or lies in response to questions about their gender history; or denies being a trans man or a trans woman.

Prosecutors should adopt an offender-centric approach when assessing whether there has been an active or deliberate deception. This involves looking closely at the actions of the suspect before, during and after the alleged assault (see chapter 3 for more details). By analysing the suspect’s behaviour in this way, a prosecutor should fully understand the circumstances and context of the incident.

An offender-centric approach should also allow the prosecutor to determine whether the suspect targeted, manipulated or exploited the complainant, or exerted control or coercion during their relationship. Where there is evidence of this nature, it is more likely that the suspect has actively or deliberately deceived the complainant.

2: Was the complainant deceived and therefore did not consent?
The rulings in McNally [25] and R (F) v DPP [2013] EWHC 945 (Admin) emphasise that “choice” is crucial to the issue of “consent” and “the evidence relating to ‘choice’ and the ‘freedom’ to make any particular choice must be approached in a broad common sense way”.

Prosecutors should consider the complainant’s particular characteristics and life experiences, and how these may have impacted on their relationship with the suspect and their understanding of the suspect’s gender. For instance, a complainant who is young, immature, vulnerable or inexperienced in sexual relationships may more easily be deceived, and therefore lack the choice or freedom to consent, especially where there is a disparity in age or maturity between the suspect and the complainant.

When assessing the complainant’s account, the following non-exhaustive list of questions may also assist prosecutors, depending on the circumstances of the case:

Has the complainant closed their eyes to the obvious or wilfully ignored aspects of the suspect’s gender? For instance, did the complainant have an opportunity to discover or confirm the gender of the suspect but chose not to avail themselves of the opportunity?

Is the amount and nature of the contact, including communications between the suspect and the complainant, consistent with the complainant not knowing the suspect’s gender and being deceived?
Is there any evidence that the complainant was exploring their own sexuality at the time of the alleged offending?

In addition to the issue of deception, prosecutors should consider whether there are any other factors that may affect the complainant’s capacity and freedom to consent, such as intoxication by alcohol or drugs.

3: Did the suspect reasonably believe that the complainant consented?
If a complainant is deceived and did not consent, it is crucial to consider whether the suspect reasonably believed in consent to sexual activity. Again, an offender-centric approach should be adopted, and the focus should be on the actions of the suspect before, during and after the alleged assault.

When addressing this question, the following considerations may assist prosecutors:

Where there has been an active or deliberate deception by the suspect, it is likely that the suspect did not reasonably believe that the complainant consented.

Where there is evidence of coercion, manipulation, or exploitation of the complainant, it is less likely that the suspect held a reasonable belief.

However, there may be very limited circumstances where, despite the suspect deceiving the complainant, the defendant reasonably believes the complainant consents to the activity. For instance, the suspect may believe that the complainant is initially deceived as to the suspect’s gender but, because of the long passage of time between the initial deception and the sexual activity, during which the suspect and complainant meet and interact on numerous occasions, by the time the sexual activity takes place the suspect reasonably believes that the deception no longer operates on the complainant.

In such scenarios, prosecutors should examine very carefully the facts and circumstances of the suspect’s claim that they believed the complainant consented and, given that there has been a deception, consider what steps the suspect has taken to satisfy themselves that the complainant consented.

Reflecting on this I think there is room to expand the law and to say that consent in certain areas MUST include full disclosure of sex. This should relate to all intimate examinations and all discussions relating to issues of an intimate or sexual nature within a professional capacity.

This would include medical settings and any kind of counselling. This then makes it patient centred and is a clear boundary.

There may also be scope in certain other areas too for legitimate purposes.

I think this is something that wise people in politics would be advised to have a good look at to put some clear water here that would be difficult to push back on in 'sensible circles' so to speak.

The thing I find particularly difficult from the above is the offender centric approach as to whether someone has made a deception about sex and it being somehow based on the perceptions of the accused about their sex and whether they'd told someone, when we have India Willoughby and Mridhul Wahwa levels of TWAW and what constitutes sex. This isn't about belief. It's about consent and a black and white line about sex.

McNally v R. [2013] EWCA Crim 1051 (27 June 2013)

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2013/1051.html

IwantToRetire · 14/09/2024 17:16

Merida46 · 14/09/2024 15:48

Mridhul Wahwa lied on his application form so he should never have been employed in the first place because the form stated explicitly that the positions was only open to females! He should have been dismissed instantly when the "mistake" was discovered.

He didn't lie. The organisation accept self identity (which by the way the EA doesn't) which was the attitude created by funders, and the SNP.

Also he was a political figure at the time having worked at other women support services and attempted (cant remember what exactly) to get some political position. So everyone knew his background.

So this was / is about either a complete co-operation by society to the trans agenda, or a society where intimidation is so high no one dares speak up.

Dont forget Roz Adams did not object to the inclusion of TW at ERCC. Her complaint, and the subsequent bullying was because she believed a service user should be told the truth. ie that she might be offered support by a TW. And the ERCC decided this breach of the TW privacy was more important than ensuring a victim of rape got the support she wanted, not what they wanted to force on her.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/09/2024 16:35

She's the kind of lightweight that Keegan was, from what I've seen.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/09/2024 16:34

TheKeatingFive · 14/09/2024 10:23

Bridget Phillipson is apparently sick of this debate and had hoped these questions would go away.

I agree this is what Labour has been hoping for. We all need to do everything we can to make sure it doesn't go away. Although it's early days, I am hopeful that too much is out of the bag now to put it back in.

100%. Perhaps Bridget isn't up to the job. She can fuck off then.

FigRollsAlly · 14/09/2024 16:32

Bridget Phillipson is sick of this debate, is she? What a luxury it must be to feel so sure that women have no need to worry about their children being led down an irreversible path nor to worry that raped women will have their trauma intensified by the results of this ideology. Or is she just incapable of empathy?

AdeptScroller · 14/09/2024 15:52

People, mainly women but a few men also, have been saying stuff for years. They've highlighted these situations and were e gaslighted and called bigots - by others, the media, the government, and received death threats eg JK Rowling and 100s of other women.

Merida46 · 14/09/2024 15:48

Mridhul Wahwa lied on his application form so he should never have been employed in the first place because the form stated explicitly that the positions was only open to females! He should have been dismissed instantly when the "mistake" was discovered.

TwistedWonder · 14/09/2024 15:43

TwistedWonder · 14/09/2024 13:30

Bridget Phillipson is apparently sick of this debate and had hoped these questions would go away.

Yep us pesky women just need to STFU, accept seeing pension display in our single sex spaces, stop complaining about sexual predators demanding to be called ‘she’ in court by their victims and know our place in the patriarchal society.

Look at the shit Rosie Duffield has had from within the Labour Party for daring to speak up about dense safeguarding.

But the TRA’s and their hand maidens need to realise the genie is out of the bottle now and more people are waking up and saying no to this emperors new clothes ideology BS.

We will not be silenced in compliance

Edited

Bloody predictive text!!

Penis in not pension
Female not dense

Theeyeballsinthesky · 14/09/2024 15:04

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 14/09/2024 15:01

x.com/ginadavidsonlbc/status/1834937956399780052?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

John Swinney says that women and girls must have the protection of women only spaces.

But John, if you're allowing males to identify as women then they become mixed sex spaces and females will not be protected.

Exactly!! This is why language is not important and why TRA focus on it so much

women must mean - and only mean - adult human female. It must not include any men in that definition. Any tiny millimetre given On this definition just opens the door up for any man to stroll in

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 14/09/2024 15:01

x.com/ginadavidsonlbc/status/1834937956399780052?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

John Swinney says that women and girls must have the protection of women only spaces.

But John, if you're allowing males to identify as women then they become mixed sex spaces and females will not be protected.

334bu · 14/09/2024 14:09

Julie Bindel writing in Spectator
www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-trans-ideologues-corrupted-rape-crisis-centres/
Not sure if this has already been posted.

TwistedWonder · 14/09/2024 13:30

Bridget Phillipson is apparently sick of this debate and had hoped these questions would go away.

Yep us pesky women just need to STFU, accept seeing pension display in our single sex spaces, stop complaining about sexual predators demanding to be called ‘she’ in court by their victims and know our place in the patriarchal society.

Look at the shit Rosie Duffield has had from within the Labour Party for daring to speak up about dense safeguarding.

But the TRA’s and their hand maidens need to realise the genie is out of the bottle now and more people are waking up and saying no to this emperors new clothes ideology BS.

We will not be silenced in compliance

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 14/09/2024 13:24

RareFatball
Rape can be committed F on F and M on M. F on M and M on F.

This is not accurate; rape is defined quite specifically as involving the use of a penis, and that cannot be done by anyone female. Only men can commit rape.

Women can, and some do, commit sexual assault, but not rape. Women can, and some do, support and assist men in the commission of rape. But they cannot do it themselves.

It is also irrelevant, because the thread is about a man who has been systematically denying female victims of male rape the support that they need in order to come to terms with their horrendous experience. Nobody has suggested that this man haas been the victim of rape himself.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 14/09/2024 12:48

TheKeatingFive · 14/09/2024 10:23

Bridget Phillipson is apparently sick of this debate and had hoped these questions would go away.

I agree this is what Labour has been hoping for. We all need to do everything we can to make sure it doesn't go away. Although it's early days, I am hopeful that too much is out of the bag now to put it back in.

This debate is never going away until females have their single sex spaces back.

334bu · 14/09/2024 12:28

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/sexual-abuse-survivors-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-trans-ideology-4780614

A sex abuse survivor' s reaction to the ERCC appalling treatment of women.

Brefugee · 14/09/2024 10:35

Now i got to vote again, i will be writing to my new Labour MP to ask about these things. I am particularly concerned with the treatment of the elderly, and my MP is shit hot on disability issues.

But i will be raising Gender ID too because it relates also to treatment of the elderly. I voted in the interests of my mum and this is part of it.

In essence i believe that people should be free to live their best lives, with the caveat that this is extended to all and their lives don't adversely affect others. That boils down to: victims should be able to express their requests for support services without anyone judging them for their choices. You do not get to impose your desire for validation on people who need that support.

TheKeatingFive · 14/09/2024 10:23

Bridget Phillipson is apparently sick of this debate and had hoped these questions would go away.

I agree this is what Labour has been hoping for. We all need to do everything we can to make sure it doesn't go away. Although it's early days, I am hopeful that too much is out of the bag now to put it back in.

Firethehorse · 14/09/2024 10:11

No one dares to speak up against male and trans activists for fear of loosing their jobs, being arrested for hate crimes and/or being vilified and hounded. We all know this, it’s why there are male bodied people in many areas of women’s sports etc.
JK Rowling very publicly opened the Rape Crisis Centre as a counterbalance to what was being offered, she is very brave but also has her wealth as a shield.
As long as the current women’s minister says there are all sorts of women (and that includes
those who simply say so) things can only get worse.
The biological loophole was set to be closed by the Conservatives but Labour do not want to do this. Bridget Phillipson is apparently sick of this debate and had hoped these questions would go away.
We should not accept such a representative but I don’t see much opposition to her or Labour’s quiet dropping of the loophole fix.

334bu · 14/09/2024 08:32

It is great that that the CEO has resigned but he was appointed by women who knew he was male and agreed with his attitude towards women who wanted female only spaces. Sandy Brindley and Maggie Chapman are both fervent believers in trans ideology and as long as Brindley heads Rape Crisis Scotland nothing will really change.

Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 14/09/2024 07:57

It took two years to get a report done on the (deliberate but undeclared) withdrawal of an essential service for raped women.

It took less than an hour for this thread to start being hijacked by “what about the men”.

No one here is opposing services for male victims. That’s not what this is about.

PonyPatter44 · 14/09/2024 07:35

Women can't commit rape, although they can commit sexual assault.

Some women would be ok with talking to a male therapist or counsellor about their rape. Some (most?) wouldn't. It's those who wouldn't be ok, who need the protection and assurance that they won't have to deal with a male while they are recovering.

CrochetForLife · 14/09/2024 03:39

RareFatball · 14/09/2024 02:51

So do you think the same for male victims of rape, that females should not be involved in their care or rehabilitation?

Rape can be committed F on F and M on M. F on M and M on F.

Don't spread dangerous misogynistic lies, @RareFatball . Women cannot rape. All rapes are by males, over 90% male to female. Please take your misogynistic whataboutery derailing elsewhere.

Delphinium20 · 14/09/2024 03:23

RareFatball · 14/09/2024 02:51

So do you think the same for male victims of rape, that females should not be involved in their care or rehabilitation?

Rape can be committed F on F and M on M. F on M and M on F.

For the minuscule amount of men who have been sexually assaulted by women, but no means would I expect them to deal with a woman in a rape shelter if they don't want that.

For the small amount of women who have been sexually assaulted by women, by all means, whatever they need, please let's make it happen.

For the men who have been raped by men, they deserve whatever rape crisis center makes sense for them. I can't speak for them.

Men commit 99% of all sexual crimes. Women are 80% of their victims. The vast majority of rape victims are women and that is the issue here, I have NO idea your purpose with these rare instances that have nothing to do with this topic of women being forced to endure men in the rape crisis shelters.

RareFatball · 14/09/2024 02:51

Delphinium20 · 12/09/2024 16:52

Men should NEVER, ever be in charge of rape crisis services or involved providing care services for women who are victims of rape.

So do you think the same for male victims of rape, that females should not be involved in their care or rehabilitation?

Rape can be committed F on F and M on M. F on M and M on F.

sashh · 14/09/2024 02:26

TorghunKhan · 13/09/2024 11:11

I'm in and organise a local support group. I am one of the anonymous interviews on Julie in Genderland, I put this question up, partly to galvanise women into taking action, I wrote to my old MP, to my new MP, to the new head of the womens thing in parliament, I protest on twitter, I send complaints to the BBC, to Primark and to anywhere else, I try to get Wikipedia changed, - I do a frak of a lot TBH

How about you?

So why did you start a thread as if you had just heard about this and criticised women, all women, including yourself for not doing enough?

I just don't get that. We should be supporting each other.

Please reread your original post and see how you come across.

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