Only the middle class and above think that Class isn't a thing any more.

What defines someone as being working class as opposed to being middle class? Manual work, renting, living in a council house? Always interested to hear peoples thoughts on what distinguishes someone's class.

For me personally, I earn an okay wage (top 10%) but because I grew up in a council house and on benefits I've always regard myself as working class.

Can someone move classes in life? Or are we born into class?

But supposing that poster grew up with a surgeon and an academic as parents, had a MC childhood, expectations, holidays, pastimes, education and lived surrounded by MC/UMC people etc etc? Would her current job, housing and income negate that? If Kirstie Allsopp was suddenly rendered penniless and homeless, is that going to negate being an Honourable, and her Bedales education?

I'm sorry, but you're really not MC if you are on benefits, live in social housing and work as a cleaner. WC people can be educated, you know.

I think you’ve misunderstood this. It’s not that someone doesn’t know what to call the evening meal or what you sit on, it’s that what they call it is a common class shibboleth, like what you say if you didn’t hear what someone said. Access to the internet at your fingertips is not class-dependent, but income-dependent.

However, you are deeply naive if you think it ‘doesn’t matter’ whether you’re a barista or a barrister. As a pp said, the child of a barista and the child of a barrister are not on a level playing field when it comes to making a career as a barrister.

And being able to use Google in no way levels it, even if the barista’s child knows to Google ‘pathways to law for underrepresented groups’ or the like.

But what makes you “working class”? It used to be based on things like income/type of job or where you live or what type of car you had or how you speak etc etc etc.

I grew up working class in a council flat with working class parents. Having recently learnt that your class is dictated at birth, I am still working class.

My children are now middle class and no one today would I assume I am working class or from a working class background.

For me it's not about class, it's about general manners and behaviour. Someone can be working class and be extremely well mannered and others simply aren't. I believe the latter are the ones who are judged as being "working class". Yes this can be prevalent in all classes in society but far more predominant in people from lower socio-economic backgrounds.

@crackofdoom "All this means that I'm fearless in advocating for myself in most situations, have no compunction in approaching institutions (schools, housing associations, banks etc) to query their decisions, am able to approach anybody to ask for help and guidance, can source free educational activities for the DC etc etc. So, although my financial class would be poor, culturally I'm MC."

This! I want to shout this from the rooftops. Print it on a T shirt.

It's not just about that though. I'm a single mum on benefits and live in social housing, work as a cleaner on occasion, but I'm educated to masters level, speak 3 languages, travel abroad, have many friends who are university lecturers etc etc.

All this means that I'm fearless in advocating for myself in most situations, have no compunction in approaching institutions (schools, housing associations, banks etc) to query their decisions, am able to approach anybody to ask for help and guidance, can source free educational activities for the DC etc etc. So, although my financial class would be poor, culturally I'm MC. (I think this is far better than the other way round, but then I would, wouldn't I).

A lot of modern classification systems for class do take this into account- I think in that BBC questionnaire linked above I'm emerging services sector, lumping me in with all the 20 something baristas in Hoxton it would seem 😆 (I'm 50 and live very rurally).

@GrouachMacbeth "
The rest is baggage - it should not matter if you are a barrister or a barista"

Of course it shouldn't. But it does. Becoming a barrister is infinitely easier for the child of a barrister than the child of a barrista.

What you call your main room, what you sit upon and what you call the meal you eat in late afternoon/evening is hot air.
What matters is that people can communicate with all, question and challenge if necessary and know where to look if unsure.
We mostly all have a computer in our pocket/purse (or Hand-bag in best Lady Bracknell) so looking up anything from what to call that which you sit upon to anything else should be easier now that ever before. It was not always this.

The rest is baggage - it should not matter if you are a barrister or a barista.

I don't think that will ever happen in Britain, it seems to be an important part of British identity!

@Appleandoranges But the point is that wealth doesn't automatically give you the access to resources we are talking about. A poor middle class person usually has more social capital than a rich working class person. It's not all about money.

I've been referred to as" so middle class" by working class people like its an insult so I am aware of it. Plus middle class people sneer at " chavs."

*would we be better

The thing we be better to drop low/middle and upper class. And just talk about income/wealth. Low income/high income etc Should we really care about whether you talk about ketchup/red sauce or toilet/loo? Serviette or napkin? I mean people can judge but if you are a builder (stereotypically w/c?), have ££££ in your bank account and have a huge house and drive a nice car and have good friends and family, who cares?

@merrymaryquitecontrary not really the important point though, is it?

@CurlewKate obviously the MC people are much more likely to fly through, but they are also more likely the ones to be sniggering about usage of toilet, serviette and settee!

Obviously it's easy (and right) to make fun of the nonsense about sofas and lounges and toilets and all the rest. However, it is undeniable that the people in the UK who code middle class have more and simpler access to many resources and often find it easier to negotiate things like the legal system, the education system, the social services. So it can be painted as risible crap-which it is. But who gets an easier ride through society?

For instance, I 'code switch' (see previous poster) between different friendship/school groups as even minor infractons can cause 🙄tensions

Yes he was saying (in defence of the argument that you shouldn't have to change your accent) that we all code switch without thinking about it - you don't speak to your partner the same way you'd speak to your boss - you switch according to context. As a Black, Muslim male with english as a second language he has had to learn to do this as a prerequisite to 'moving on'. He speaks a lot about social mobility, as says employers/mentors need to teach people who are from very disadvantaged wc backgrounds the 'rules'. It's much easier to jump on the band wagon than to challenge and dismantle it.

To be fair I think this is a mumsnet thing. No one in real life feels the need to frantically debate what you should be saying for rooms/sauces/furniture items, because largely people tend to socialize/form friendships with people like themselves, so it's not an issue.

As someone who grew up in the former Soviet block I'm sick to death of the obsession with class in the UK. Why are people so happy to put themselves in these castes - whether they are WC, MC or UC? If there was a better (and free) education system from nursery right up to university / apprenticeships, class would stop being such a thing.

@merrymaryquitecontrary He talks a lot about 'code switching'

^ Yes, this.

For me, the problem is more acute in situations where the class or education difference is relatively minor.

For instance, I 'code switch' (see previous poster) between different friendship/school groups as even minor infractons can cause 🙄tensions.

But, in the unlikely event I bump into someone who's plainly upper MC or upper class, I worry less about it because the power relationship is already clear.

This to me is why I objected to the comparison to colour initially. None of these things are as immediately obvious as colour, and you can teach someone who says serviette to say napkin. And even across the UK this supposed class lexicon varies; I don't know anyone who uses either ketchup or red sauce, it's commonly referred to as tomato sauce, so I don't know which of your two examples are mc or wc?
I read a brilliant book recently called People Like Us by Britain's only Somali barrister. He arrived in London aged 9 as an unaccompanied child asylum seeker. He lived in the worst poverty imaginable, but went on to get a scholarship for Oxford and he is now in one of the most prestigious chambers. He talks a lot about 'code switching', he now speaks with a very RP accent and has had to learn a lot of the middle class signifiers in order to get by in his line of work. He said though that as a Black man in court, people often assume he is an interpreter, because they never expect him to be a barrister, and congratulate him (without knowing anything of his background) for doing so well.

Let’s not do that. Stay on topic. This is about class, not any other “isms”. Please don’t start comparing isms that don’t impact you.

@Flatspat "I don't want to cause any offence and this is just my observation of working for years with this group of people."

You failed.