WFH - What is reasonable?

I really hope you are not senior level management. I would hate to work for you. I’m just starting out in first line management and have done a lot of management training recently. Your approach has gone out with the arc and is certainly not in line with current thinking on good management and leadership skills.

I know @PuddlesPityParty it makes no sense 😂

I wonder how many of the outraged posters go and get a cup of tea every hour, or have a smoke break, or stand and chat at peoples desks while going to get something?!

The people I know who pick their children up from school and then WFH all work for large corporates - they're mostly lawyers (by coincidence). And they all work far more than 2 hours after 3pm.

Personally, I could do it but I don't - but that's from a parenting perspective, not a work one.

*What do you not understand? They pop out at 3 to get the kids, then come home and get back to work while the kids amuse themselves until dinner time.

Fine in some jobs, not in others. Doable with some kids, not with others. Not hard to understand though. *

You can't work effectively with children at home. Every single company I've worked in has expressly banned having kids under 10 at home without childcare while working. Its people piss taking like this who ruin it for everyone. You are paid to work, not look after your kids. Pay for ASC its what it's there for!

Id say though, whether its reasonable depends on the culture of the organisation. Its not a given that permission to wfh means permission to work flexibly. In most large corporates I'd say its fine to put a load of washing in, make a coffee, answer the door,,but not fine to:

• go work in a cafe
• go to the gym/exercise class unless its lunch hour
• pick up children from school and have them home with you for two hours while you're working
• spend a load of time chatting to a friend or neighbour who pops over, unless its lunch hour.

What do you not understand? They pop out at 3 to get the kids, then come home and get back to work while the kids amuse themselves until dinner time.

Fine in some jobs, not in others. Doable with some kids, not with others. Not hard to understand though.

Maybe it's not safe for the kids to walk home?

Lots of rural schools are on main roads with no pavements, so while they're not far in terms of distance, they're also not very safe.

Lots of schools also don't like primary children walking home alone but those same children would be fine to sit in front of the TV for an hour while their parents finish up.

I never get how people are doing school run, i mean what do you do with the kids when back? Or do your working hours finish at 3pm in which case why does it matter?

Wfh doesn't mean looking after your kids while you work. If they aren't old enough to walk themselves home you need to use asc/childminder if you don't finish work til 5

And lots of places won't let you install unauthorised software or hardware in the first place. Far too easy a way to let in malware etc if you do.

I don’t think your expectations are unreasonable but I don’t think this necessarily is just related to WFH. It sounds like your new company isn’t the right cultural fit for you. When we all worked in the office I wouldn’t have cared if one of my team popped to the shop to buy chocolate, or had a chat in the kitchen or ran the odd errand. I want my team focused on output and deliverables, not chained to their desk between the strict hours of 9-5. It also sounds like you are too senior for these petty rules. With seniority comes trust to get the job done, you shouldn’t need micro-managing.

Well, just to point out, I'm currently green on teams while reading and replying to this thread! So that means nothing.

I'm a better worker for taking 10 minutes here and there to do a quick chore (or pop on MN!). There's a certain level of problem solving in my role and often stepping away for a few minutes allows me to come up with a solution.

I used to do the same in the office by making a coffee or speaking to a colleague (or popping on MN 😂). Nothing has changed. Except I do get more done now as I don't have the horrendous commute.

But in an office popping out to get a coffee would be fine - its so silly!

I would find that annoying, but if it's the company policy then don't take it personally. Could you open Teams on your phone if you're away from the laptop? That keeps the green tick on!

I am in the same job as you, and I would consider that an unacceptable level of micromanagement. I give my junior team members more autonomy over their own time than that, and I can’t remember a time when my manager has ever asked where I am, other than in a friendly, oh, are you in the office today, who’s there kind of way. I don’t blame you for looking for something else, I would in your position.

The IT department can tell if you have that specific hardware installed.

Loads of people in the USA just got fired for doing this

I think the point is that people in these kind of roles often don’t have “hours” per day. They are expected to do the work and that takes as long as it takes.

My previous junior role I worked strictly 9-5. As soon as the clock flicked to 5.00 on the computer we shut it down and walked out. Enforced by the boss. In 5 years I never left after that time except once when I was in the middle of a phone call with a client and stayed the 5 min to finish it. If we needed to work longer hours we got TOIL.

My current role I just get the job done. If I do it at midnight then no one cares as long as it’s done on time. I do work mostly office hours anyway, but if someone phones or emails me at 7/8pm and it’s urgent then I’m expected to deal with it at that time.

My partner works in a job like this and he is trusted to do the work as required. Some nights he has been there till 3am sorting something so no one bats an eye if he nips to the shop or post office etc. It is a professional role and he is treated accordingly. It would be pretty obvious in this role if he wasn't doing his job!

My role is more like yours in that we have a senior micro manager. My line manager is fine if I need to take ten minutes away etc, but the senior manager isn't so relaxed. They want to know where people are and what they are doing all the time. People on the team find it really annoying as evening and weekend work for no extra pay is expected. It has resulted in people being a lot less willing to go the extra mile when they are pulled up for being in the toilet for too long.

Sometimes it is down to who is managing you and people in the same company can have a vastly different experience. My company is all about flexible working and work life balance but this manager doesn't like it.

I hate it. Unless you have time sensitive or a role where you answer calls etc it should be down to people to get the work done as works for them. Breeds better morale and loyalty and trouble makers should be given measurable tasks and dealt with if needed

I don’t think your expectations are unreasonable but they may not be a good fit for this role/company. I used to work in a role like yours and we had a degree of flexibility and then the presenteeism started creeping in. We were micromanaged over the smallest things. For example, a lot of the role involved desk research. I get a lot of headaches and one way I manage this is to have time away from the screen when I feel one coming on. I mainly do this by switching to another task such as reading printed materials. This is done within full view of the laptop so that if I’m needed I can jump back on but of course Teams goes yellow through inactivity. I’m still working but boss would want to know where I was. Refused to believe I wasn’t working if the mouse wasn’t moving, despite the company guidance to take regular screen breaks. This happened to all of us and morale went though the floor. Many of us left (including me) and those that stayed refused to be flexible on their time meaning that management had a hard time getting things done as they had relied on good will to cover extra shifts etc. Where I work now we have the type of flexibility you describe. It helps us all to balanace and ensures the work gets done. And the team are happy which means they are more engaged and more willing to go the extra mile when needed. And the work gets done, to a high standard and on time.

I would have an honest conversation with your line manager about this whilst acknowledging that you’re not likely to get the answer you want. Then start looking for new roles. If/when you leave this one you can mention the lack of flexibility in your resignation and maybe someone will take notice. Either way, you will be better off!

I don't think your expectations are wrong. I have the same freedom so ling as I do my hours. I am customer facing, but have only had one call in a month so I log in and off as required. As far as I know I'm not monitored tho, no work phone or work laptop.

Why?

Hope your salary is docked accordingly

😂

As long as you are making up the time you are missing, so you are fully working your hours each day, then where i work that is ok. It's a conversation you need t have with your manager about expectations

The thing is, you can have conversations until you're blue in the face, but if your manager is one of those people who is convinced that you need to be chained to your desk for 9 hours straight, you're probably not going to get very far.

See all the responses on here from people who are outraged at the very idea of buying a chocolate bar on company time 😂

I don't know how this happened, but having read this post earlier, my YouTube homepage randomly showed me short of how to program your computer to randomly move your mouse pointer every two seconds (i dabble with software). A quick search on google brought up several you can install on your machine for free 😂

I think a lot of people commenting here have not had long term experience wfh or are not in senior roles.
In a senior position there has to be trust both ways. I'm not a clock watcher who only performs 9-5. I frequently travel stupid hours, often on Sunday afternoons to be in place for meetings on a Monday morning. I regularly get up at 430am for work to catch a flight some days not getting home until 930 or 10pm a few days later.
My boss cares about the quality of my work and the output and how I manage my team and stakeholders.
He couldn't care less that I take 20 mins to do the school run each afternoon (I block my calendar for this as I also do for the odd dentist appointment or gym session).
If we are working as professional people and performing in our role , we shouldn't expect to be micro managed . There is just no need and it shows a lack of experience and trust from the manager.
Sticking on the washing machine or having a coffee break doesn't mean you are a skiver, it means you are a great multi-tasker 😎