WFH - What is reasonable?

As for your last point, if I see a CV where someone usually works at a place for a long time, then is looking for a new role within 6 months of joining somewhere new, I judge the employer, not the candidate!

People stay a long time in my company. Three people left within the last couple of years, who had worked here for 12 years, 7 years and 5 years respectively. All of them left their new roles within the first 12 months of joining because they were a nightmare.

I'd say you had it good in a previous job and this time haven't got as good a company.

I work for a company where it a bit like no flexibility at all but they expect flexibility from me to work late or at weekends to meet deadlines. My DH works for the complete opposite company where as long as you do your job and are available mostly over core hours they don't really care what you do. It's made me consider moving job to be honest as the constant worry about telling my boss every little detail gets annoying. It feels a bit like you are being watched all the time.

Some of the things you have listed I would consider unreasonable but 15 mins here and there for answering the door, or popping to a corner shop, or doing a pick up, I'd think was ok.

Personally if they aren't willing to give flexibility for 15 mins here and there then I wouldn't give it back either working evenings and weekends to catch up on things etc

No vending machine in my office!

Is it any different to popping to the vending machine when in the office though? Nobody takes that as a break. Similarly chatting to a colleague or somebody in the kitchen isn't frowned upon or taken as a break. FWIW I rarely WFH due to the nature of my job but surely the examples noted by OP have an office scenario equivalent.

I work in an office. I wouldn't be allowed to pop off for 25 minutes to do little things for myself.

I'm not sure why work from home people , think that they can do that.

What office do you work in. In my office , we are not allowed to "pop put for a coffee'

I think any manager who relies on their employee’s status on teams to show whether they are working or not, is quite a poor manager? I often print off lengthy documents and go through them away from the laptop or make notes etc away from the laptop - I’m still working, just not on my laptop

I am a long term wfh'er (since 2008) in a professional role across 4 different companies in that time. My job requires flexibility of me including being able to accomodate client calls between 7am and 8pm when pre-arranged and to travel for business. I get no time off in lieu or additional pay when I travel so I might fly out Sunday night for a Monday morning meeting and fly back later on Monday getting home by around midnight. I then go to work as normal Tuesday.

The payback to this is that my boss leaves me alone as long as work gets done and objectives get met. I have lots of meetings most days and things I need to get finished that are very visible to others so it's clear I am working but I also dropped my daughter to school late today (11am, 40 minute round trip) without having to clear it with work - as an example.

I'd suggest a come to Jesus with your boss but it certainly appears as if they expect all the flexibility to come from you. If that is the case you should be getting overtime pay or toil to compensate any late work or business travel. In your situation I'd be looking for a new job.

Unless your organisation has locked form those settings

Aside from the time issues, I find doing non-work things during the working day makes it much harder to keep on top of work/life balance; the lines get blurred.

I do have enormous flexibility and there are times I take advantage of that, but I much prefer to work regular hours - go to my garden office, work (with breaks for tea, loo, getting a pint of milk), stop work, get on with the rest of my day.

But workers have a right to one 20 min break and a lunchtime break during the working day, so why would 15/20 mins be a problem just because you are at home and use that time for a domestic task.

OP your manager sounds like a tedious micro-manager, can you call him/her out and ask why they are doing this?

The point of a taking a break is to....take a break. To rest your mind for a short while, to stretch your legs or get some fresh air.
Worrying about having to arse around on your phone to make your manager think you're working seems more stressful that actually just working. Either you're allowed to take breaks or your not.

And all these clever, clever people beating the Teams system...managers are going to cop on. Result will be they insist you have your camera on at all times. Or go back to the office (where the slackers and piss takers will continue to slack and piss take as has always been the case).

I'm so glad I work for a normal company.

[off to get a pint of milk now]

I think boss sounds controlling, but at the same time, I WFH 10-6 daily and im in my office at my desk and computer for the duration of those hours.
I take a short lunch break, and make a cup of tea mid afternoon.

All of this popping out, or having a chat with the neighbour, going to a cafe etc isnt something i would do as although my boss isnt controlling, i control myself.

You cannot assume working from home means flexi working by default. It doesn't.

People are not saying that. In fact my own posts have acknowledged that there are some operational type jobs where the traditional 9-5 model is still required, regardless of whether the person is sitting at a desk in the office at home

However the discussion has been about whether OPs boss should be stalking her online status (they shouldn’t) or whether pay should be docked because people who have the luxury of being flexible pop out during the day which of course it shouldn’t.

And yes I did say luxury as it is that but it doesn’t feel so luxurious when it’s a 15+ hour day involving travelling which it very often is for me and those in similar roles

There is a difference between chatting to colleagues in the office (team building/bonding) and chatting to non work friends during work hours. I would be fine if my team were chatting to each other or other colleagues, clients etc during work hours (within reason) but not fine if they were regularly having 15 minute long phone calls to catch up with friends or family. OP chatting to her neighbour falls into the latter category.

This thread has been eye opening to a lot of views that I thought had been left behind. I appreciate that some jobs are time boxed within that traditional 9-5 model and are not flexible, but some are

Some are yes, and where an organisation is clear that wfh goes hand in hand with flexibility, thats fine.

But

You cannot assume working from home means flexi working by default. It doesn't.

If your 25 mins chats are - in effect - your lunchbreak then this is fine. If it is on top of, then less good.

I bet people in the office spend longer than 25 minutes a day chatting to each other, making cups of tea and standing about waiting for things to print etc.

I worked retail for years and even then I spent longer than that each day making coffee or chatting 🤷‍♀️

I’m sure someone has posted this, but can you download teams on your phone and check in every few minutes if, for example, you do a chocolate run? That’s what I do.

In offices people go to make a coffee, chat with colleagues, and pop to the shop for 15 minutes ALL THE TIME. Why should it be different at home?

Again it depends on the organisation and type of job. To your points:

• go work in a cafe - as long as you are not revealing private information and/or having calls then for some jobs it will be fine. As long as you don’t take the piss out of the cafe owner and actually buy something from the cafe

• go to the gym/exercise class unless its lunch hour - I did PT sessions at 10am and classes at 3pm in the gym in our office building even before covid/wfh became the norm. But on those days I would be in the office at 7 or leave later. Going to the gym is/was encouraged by the company and obviously all 5000 people that worked in the office couldn’t go at lunch so going throughout the day is the norm

• pick up children from school and have them home with you for two hours while you're working - if they can be independent then it’s fine, if they need to be parented then not fine. I would agree that this is a more recent change in mindset and has taken a while for that trust to be built. Only thing that would annoy me is if a colleague expected me to work late to accommodate their childcare

• spend a load of time chatting to a friend or neighbour who pops over, unless its lunch hour. - again if I am on late or logged on early then having a chat with Mavis next door is not going to cause any issues or make me not meet my objectives

This thread has been eye opening to a lot of views that I thought had been left behind. I appreciate that some jobs are time boxed within that traditional 9-5 model and are not flexible, but some are and the problem that OP started this thread about wasn’t about the role she had but the outdated view her manager has

I am writing this on my commute in as work expect me to be at a meeting until 9pm tonight so the flexible nature of my job means I could do a bit at home this morning, but also have a lazy morning and come in later.

The adult nature of my relationship with my boss means I didn’t even tell him this is what I am doing as to him he would say I don’t care as long as you get done today what is needed

You don't have to work for me don't worry

I was going to say the same.

If your work is done on time to the requisite standard, it shouldn't matter if you need to leave your desk to go to the loo or talk to the plumber. We have lives (and medical needs!) outside work. People should get a hour's lunchbreak but if you are in an office job and don't have meetings or need to be on call, you should be able to take your break when it suits you, which might not be lunchtime as such.

Teams recently changed so it goes from green to amber in a couple of minutes. I've been sitting at my desk in the office, talking to my colleague next to me, and our statuses have gone amber! It is ridiculous.

Yes some people take the mick, but that's for a boss to manage.

How much of the pop to the shops type stuff could be done in your lunchbreak and are you taking a lunch break?

If your 25 mins chats are - in effect - your lunchbreak then this is fine. If it is on top of, then less good.

Also, I would not expect my team to be routinely working from cafes unless they are doing it on the road, between client sites.

Having said that, have you checked to see if this is happening to other colleagues across the org? Are you meeting all your deliverables with bells on?

If so, then this sort of working culture would make me walk. WfH is a privilege but micromanagement is a form of bullying.

If your boss is checking up on you and putting in random 1:1s then they obviously think you are taking the piss and that's all that matters, not what other people think is 'reasonable'. FWIW yes I also think you're being unreasonable and would think that anyone in my team who has time to go to a cafe, chat to neighbours for 15 minutes and in particular work with kids at home doesn't have enough work to do and isn't contributing to their full potential. Sending a few occasional emails at night doesn't make for it, that is expected in most jobs like yours I would have thought.