WFH - What is reasonable?

Boss must have NOTHING to do. Who has time for that????

@Nutellla actually shocked and disgusted to read that you go to work in a cafe when you are meant to be doing your real job!!!! that is taking the piss!!! no wonder many employers do not agree with wfh!!!

Would you think it ok to pop to the shop or do the school run if you worked out of an office?

Shop has always been acceptable, usually with, "does anyone want anything?" Obviously just a bar of cchocolate can of drink sort of thing, not a full supermarket weekly shop. Every office I've worked in since 1996 has had a shop on site.

The word is working from home.

Would you think it ok to pop to the shop or do the school run if you worked out of an office?

This is why so many companies are demanding people come back to the office, because of people who seem to think they can fit work in around their home life, or take the piss by using automatic mice.

No. I don’t think you’re unreasonable. I do same as you and more and wfh but I also work late and on non working days etc. I do my hours just not always 9-5. Which is fine. I’ve told my boss I sometimes am late to log on if I need to do something first thing but if I am then I’ll make it up somewhere in the week. I wouldn’t count putting washing on etc. as downtime. I think the focus if you’re on teams call for hours is different too and you really need time away from pc at some points. I think that style of management is very junior and usually is driven by someone who is not particularly smart or mature in their role.

I was just about to post this! I have a senior role (and it’s very flexible!), in my experience, poor managers look to micro manage and pick on ‘easy’ stuff to make it look like they are actually doing something - he can’t be busy if as soon as he sees your icon go to amber, he calls you? Also what if you’re on a work call or making notes etc etc that doesn’t involve being on the computer? You’re still working but would show as away - he sounds like a terrible manager

Sounds like your new boss is related to my new boss. Devoted micromanager, thinks they know everything despite this being their first post in the sector, bangs on about 'never missing anything' but actually oblivious to most things they can't see or be told in detail by the devoted (and drastically under qualified) brown nosers in the wider team.

New boss also regularly buggers off whenever they feel like it without letting anyone know, spends most of their time in the office on the phone, loudly, to their kids while the rest of us do their work for them (stopping as of now). I used to happily go above and beyond but not any more. If they haven't left by the time I finish the post-grad course I'm on I won't be staying, I have no loyalty to the organisation at all any more. I'm already looking after having originally thought (pre arrival of new boss) I'd be here a few years at least.

It's probably partly being a new job and not knowing you, and also every workplace has its own culture and expectations. But yes, I do expect to be expected to manage my own time within the requirements of the job. I know when meetings are, what daily tasks there are, what longer deadlines are for projects. Also, I'm due to start an out of hours system update in a minute. If they want me sometimes working very unsociable hours, they can show some flexibility in the day, too.

I see no difference between going to the shop on the corner of my street and the onsite shop at the office; in fact, the one on my street is probably closer. No difference from my manager going out for a vape.

I too am in a new job. I've got a really inflexible micromanager. I can understand wanting to supervise new staff closely - someone can know the technical side of a job very well, but they'll still need help with knowing the expenses process, how to request applications - all the stuff that is internal and different in every company. But people also need their own space to learn and make mistakes and managers shoukd have their own work - if they've got time to check up on everyone constantly, they can't be doing all the work they're expected to do.

I'm dealing with it by having another job interview lined up next week.

You are not being unreasonable - that level of scrutiny over teams status is nuts. I work til the job is done; regularly finish later than 5 or don't have a full hour for lunch (or more time than it takes to make lunch before eating in front of my computer) and am granted TOIL only in the very rarest circumstances. On less busy days i might nip to the shop, have a wax, have a walk round the block and would probably let my team know before I did it. If I was being teams stalked like this I would be fuming.

Sounds like micromanaging... I would be uncomfortable with that level of monitoring but for the meantime... open the post-it note app and ensure curser is in it, and place your tv remote control (button side down so it won't slip off) on the space bar. It will keep the key running over the post it note, without sending your laptop or computer into chaos, and will ensure your status stays active at all times...
But ultimately if they can't trust you to do you job without you being active online every second of your working hours, then in my opinion it's bad management and also not an environment I'd want to be in.

This !

Sounds like company are ok with wfh but manager isn’t.
Or company knows that wfh needs to be tolerated to get & retain good staff. But they don’t trust the process.

Get yourself a better job, you’re not paranoid, and things won’t improve.

Are they expecting you to catch up on emails at night or are you doing it because your making up the time you've spent not working during the day? Have you discussed with your boss that you do school runs etc but make the time up at night? If I'm leaving the house at 4 or 5am for work travel then I get to bank the travel time, so I would log off really early that day or save it for another day if I can't do it on the same day. It sounds like you to need to communicate your expectations of flexibility with your boss as they seem to be in the dark about your routine and working habits so they feel like they can't trust how you are managing your time

I have a similar job title to you and my boss couldn’t care less when I log on and off as long as I get the job done

So If I go to the gym at 2pm, meet a friend for a coffee in Costa over lunch or have Selling Sunset on in the background while I am creating a PowerPoint pack then I will

My question would be has your boss not got enough work that means that he has the time to stalk you? My boss has no time to sit and monitor when we all change from green to amber

For this kind of role it would usually be completely normal to have time flexibility in your role, to be able to nip out to do personal admin tasks and not to have to clock watch.

Every organisation I have worked in has treated project manager or similar roles (i.e. not call centre type roles) in the flexible way that you want.

Ignore the posters who think you should account for every minute if your time and work strict hours - we don't all work in those kind of roles, and for some reason some people on MN seem to get annoyed about other people having flexibility.

I cant believe you're finding a 9-5 suffocating, when you should be at work for those hours unless otherwise agreed.

My job is flexible like this because it works both ways. I frequently have to do work in evenings or in my days off to get the work done, but that also means it’s ok if I take a bit of time during my “working day” in same way you do. So as your job clearly isn’t 9-5 then it’s perfectly reasonable for you to do this. But clearly your boss disagrees so find something else. But do also agree with a pp that sometimes you have to prove yourself initially before they will trust you and stop micromanaging.

Most contracts will state general working hours plus any travel requirements. I travel for my role and that is expected, however on a normal working day I wouldn't spend my time travelling about, having long conversations, going to the shop etc in works time. I have the flexibility to do this if needed but I would clock off and also let my team and boss know I won't be around for x amount of time in case something urgent comes up - that's just been professional and courteous. The flexi policy I work too states you only have to log in for 5 hours a day then you can log off and use the time you have in credit or make the time back but I would never just log off at 2 without letting my boss and team know even though the policy says I can. Also I add the school runs I do to my work outlook calendar so people don't book meetings in with during that time

Presumably that also means they can't expect any early mornings or overnight stays from the OP either? Strictly 9-5 only.

If your contracted hours are mainly 9-5 then it seems you are taking the piss. If I'm leaving my desk to for longer than 10 mins to change location, do school run, sort a plumber etc then I would clock out and do it in my own time (we have a flexible clock in/clock out system). I would also drop my boss a message to let them know. I expect the same from my team and they expect the same from their teams. Have you made it clear to your boss you take these breaks and but always make the time up?

I read a lot of scientific papers in my job. They're online, but I'm often not moving my sodding mouse about the whole time.
Thankfully I work in a team where everyone does what is expected of them.

I’ve seen lots of videos on social media explaining how to look like you’re online on Teams. Definitely worth a search and testing the proposed solutions.