WFH - What is reasonable?

A previous workplace of mine used time tracking software which tracked mouse movements and keyboard strokes, as well as taking random screen shots of the user's screen. Employees would receive similar phone calls if performance on the above was considered lacking in any way.
It was an awful, toxic workplace and I did not stay there very long.

It's piss taking like this that reduces trust for people who work conscientiously from home.

You can work conscientiously from home without being glue to your desk the entire time 🙄

Or maybe it's micro managing like OP describes that makes people manipulate their Teams status.

It's piss taking like this that reduces trust for people who work conscientiously from home.

It's hard for us to answer this OP - all companies are different and have different cultures and expectations. I work with a boss like your previous ones, who trusts me to do the job and doesn't check up on me, so I understand your feelings. I don't think your current situation is very unusual though.

Perhaps you should make impromptu calls to your boss on your 4am work journeys.

I think WFH can be worse than being in the office as you're expected to be available every minute of the day on Teams but if you were physically in the office then you would be walking around, getting coffee, having conversations, going out to lunch etc

Your not unreasonable that is your line manager, not very empowering hence why you are looking for a new job

My colleague and I moved to a flexible job from NHS and for the first 3 months we kept asking our boss to go to the toilet or to wfh on a quieter day where the car was in the garage to save a 3h bus commute. She sat us down after this time and asked her to please stop asking her everytime we needed a small break, as long as the classes were covered and we were well prepared to take them she really didn't care what we did in the in-between time. Felt very refreshing and took a long time to get used to when I was used to every single minute being accounted for.

Your view of flexibility is normal for your role. Why is your manager so bored? I think you'll have to move, but if you wanted to stay then you'll need to discuss mutual flexibility expectations; it may be useful to discuss time tracking, so instead of I ogging 8 hours to bill x client- if you log 3 hours 15, then wander off to shops, log 2 hours, have late lunch and do washing, log another 1 hour, break for school run, then 2 hours... then you are accurately tracking to ensure you don't under-do hours.

I'd look for another job. They are micromanaging idiots. I wfh fully, we have complete flexibility to work whatever hours so long as the work is done. We are spread over timezones which adds to that necessity though.

Just say you poo a lot, they won’t trouble you again.

Agree that the piss takers ruin a really good system for everyone. You are expected to be present. Your benefit is the lack of commute on those days, which is amazing, it makes such a life difference. Is all the work getting done within the day, that should be the Managers priority.

You know she means she's working on her laptop at a table, not that she's behind the counter being paid by Costa, right?

It sounds like your manager has different expectations around WFH than you do. Do they have other direct reports? Do you know them well enough to see if it is the same for them or if it is a you thing? On my WFH days I will put in a wash, hang it etc during the time I am making a cup of tea or need a break from a task. My manager is the same so we have that flex. However not every manager is so it is manager dependant

All of those things are fine in my role, if we are away from our desk for more than 15 minutes we just notify the teams chat and don't include that in our work time when filling in our Flexi time sheet as long as we do our hours somewhere between 7am and 7pm it's fine.

School run is fine as long as children are over 10 and don't need supervising at home, taking car for an MOT is fine, extended lunch for a hair cut or supermarket shop also fine - providing business needs come first and you attend all set meetings with stakeholders.

I have core hours so I’m expected to be online between 10-3:30 (minus lunch) but the rest of the time is mine to manage. If I need to be offline between them times I put it in my diary and let my manager know 🤷‍♀️ seems like you’ve done from a fairly relaxed place to one where there’s a bit more structure. Speak to your boss about it. If you’re fairly new I imagine they’d be some concern to make sure you’re not taking the piss either.

Look this is really simple OP. You have an open conversation with your boss and explain exactly what you have told us here. Your approach is perfectly reasonable in most company cultures but if this employer has a presenteeism culture then it’s extremely clear you aren’t going to be happy there. So you say, “ok I understand and will try to comply but please be aware it means I’m not going to available for emails out of hours if there is no flexibility in the day time. Just letting you know i will take my hour for lunch every day at x o’clock and I will block my diary and I won’t be available for calls or emails in that hour, and I will be offline for emails and calls at until I start at 8.30 and from 4.30 sharp.” You might find that is exactly what your boss expects.

The travel… did the interviewer explain the travel requirement and did they understand you live 4 hours away? Is the company paying for you to stay away for the week (presumably you don’t have an 8 hour commute every day!)?

In every company I have ever worked, if company is paying for you to stay in a hotel and paying your meal costs, then you are “working away” and your travel time counts as work, this is either compensated by a) time off in lieu b) overtime pay c) allowed to travel during working hours.

Revisit your contract. If it says you are on a wfh contract so your ordinary place of work is your home, then your travel to work time is 0hours. However check if the contract specifies that “when required” you will work at one or various other locations and this will require “reasonable travel” - if so then four hours is NOT reasonable and they knew where you lived when they hired you so I would say, “without the flexibility and with working away all week , I’m going to get burned out so in my travelling weeks, I will leave home at 7.30 to arrive at work on Monday and I’ll finish on Friday at 1.30pm.” See how they respond.

I doubt your contract specifies a fixed location for the away working and specifies that NO travel time is allowed. It is therefore ambiguous and unreasonable to expect you to give up 8 hours a week to travel AND stay away from home every day (which is conventionally understood to be “sort of working”).

I would also look for another job just in case the current boss continues to be an uncomprending tosspot.

My job is like your previous jobs, get the work done, be available for meetings and otherwise your time is your own. I know friends and family think I take the piss but my reviews are excellent at work and it’s just the culture of where I work 🤷‍♀️. I could never go back to a clock watching job.

As long as you are doing the work you need to do within your hours and not claiming overtime or TOIL for the late evenings etc, and likewise you being absent isn’t meaning others have to pick up your work, I couldn’t care less tbh.

But I and other managers I work with have had a lot of bad experiences over the last four years of people taking the piss (not saying OP is) so lots of companies and managers are clamping down - and I can’t say I blame them. A few arseholes ruining it for others. Just because OP isn’t cruising doesn’t mean others aren’t (I mean literally look at the first post in this thread)

But they expect her to do extra hours for no additional pay?

Also a lot of wifi in cafes is poor quality so bring a secure dongle for your own connectivity.

I think working in cafe is wrong unless you can somehow guarantee that no client, personal or company internal information can be seen by others. It is eye opening when I’m on the train looking at material I shouldn’t see.
I can’t imagine how you make or take calls from a cafe.

You need to say to your boss, that if they want you to work 8:30 til 5:30, with zero time away from the laptop, no stepping away for any reason, then they need to understand that your 4am and late night work will have to stop. They can't have it both ways. The number of times you leave home early to do your job more than covers your time away from the laptop at home so if they don't remove this trigger thingy then you will just work those hours and that's that. This will also reduce the amount of hours on site as the 4am travel will have to stop.

Wow! Not very progressive thinking (or likely envy)

We are allowed to work from anywhere in the world. 30 days max at a time, due to tax reasons.

This year alone I've worked from 3 different countries.

Productivity has proven to go up with flexible working.

Why does the location matter if the work is completed?

OP YANBU. Working in an office does not mean people are present and working 100% of the time - popping to put the kettle on, having a chat with Rachel whose desk is near yours, having a team catch up when someone is leaving etc etc. Look at adjusting your teams settings I think!