WFH - What is reasonable?

YANBU, unless there are performance issues then you should be trusted to manage your own time, especially if they are expecting flexibility and or antisocial travel from you.

The WFH thing seems like a red herring, if I was in the office I’d spend 10 mins having a chat or pop out to the post office regularly. Plus if they are doing this can you imagine how much time the managers are wasting.

If you’re already looking for a job TBH I’d just keep doing what you’re doing and see if anyone raises an issue.

I have actually been up since 5am in order to get to my meetings today so I’ve definitely banked some ‘overtime’ I won’t get paid for today 😂

I am amazed at the amount of adult professionals who would prefer to try to cheat the system than have a professional conversation.

Senior professionals should be managed according to meeting objectives (which may include being available but only where actual business demands it) and not by the clock.

But, if they aren’t able to have this conversation, maybe they shouldn’t be senior professionals.

Spot on. There are days where I have to travel which means leaving home at 5am and getting home at 10pm. Am I getting paid overtime? No because it’s an expectation of my job.

So after that 10pm arrival home, the next day if I want to be a bit flexible on how my day looks I will

Now it’s nearly 9 so better go and start being productive before my manager catches me out

Just had a pay rise actually because my output and quality exceed the objectives I am set. And also put processes in place to make things more efficient and improved our customers experience

So no my salary is not docked because I went out for a Starbucks at 3pm yesterday

Something in between the two extremes is normal and acceptable. Having an alert when employees go amber is bizarre and not a culture I’d be part of. At the same time, I wouldn’t allow my team to routinely work in cafes etc. They need to have an adequate set-up to focus and for confidentiality etc.

Note that OP mentions how she is flexible for the company’s benefit- working away with early starts and lates.

OP - I think you’ve got two choices. Either buy the mouse moving device - or have a firm word with your boss about give and take. Any company that expects travel plus early starts and lates should be flexible on brief pauses during the 9 to 5. Otherwise it should be 9 to 5 only.

Universities that have tried to impose 9 to 5/6 hours have had the inevitable pushback on out of hours working which they also want . I don’t see that employers should have it both ways.

Yes, of course.

to your employer (not employee).

I think you need a conversation about expectations with your boss!

Both myself and boss wfh and do let each other know what's going on, more as courtesy e.g. I've got a plumber in today doing some work or "that call was awful, going for a walk to clear my head"! It's totally neutral and not done from a checking up perspective- he makes it very clear it's done from a courtesy perspective by offering the sane in reverse and that he's not measuring me by online time- progress reviews all positive etc.

Equally we have a very problem solving type role and therefore he acknowledges we don't do our best work at a desk and is often vocal that he needs a walk to do some good thinking and considers that work!

If you do a strict 9-5 WFH job then no, you probably shouldn't be away from your desk for long.

When you do a role with travel including early starts or with expectations of availability out of hours for calls or urgent matters then that's entirely different. I often send emails in the evening or join work calls at 7.30am or 6.30pm but, diary permitting, I will also work from the hairdressers or go to the gym during the day. There is no flexitime or TOIL, you get the job done and manage your time appropriately.

I do think it sounds a bit suffocating.

But, if you are a senior employee who would be hard to replace, you need to act like one and not either get all upset or try to cheat the system.

You ask for a meeting with your boss in which you explain what you deliver to your employee and your expectations in return, one of which is managing your own time flexibly and not being hassled every time you pop out.

He will either agree or he won’t, in which case you can start looking for a new job and make sure that some flexibility over your time is built into your contract.

Most people in jobs like the OP spend far more than 40 hours working so actually they should probably be paying her overtime (but they won't and no-one would expect to be paid overtime in this type of role).

A lot of people who work like this probably do more than their contracted hours over all.

We have to log out hours worked but within reason noone minds how or when we work them

Unreasonable, what about breaks?!
I WFH and nobody bats an eyelid if I occasionally pop out due the day because I'm trusted to do my job and they know it all evens out because some days I'll be working late. Obviously if I was taking the piss and never at meetings or never available or not meeting deadlines questions would be asked, but honestly nobody is like that in my team.

This is spot on. I have a role that gives similar flexibility (both ways) and would hate to be treated like this. I often pop to the shops or the dentist or wherever but I also respond to emails and teams messages at 9pm if they're urgent.

Would you pop out of the office to do all those things? Would it be allowed to go and get a chocolate bar from the shop when not on your break?

I think what you want is flexible working, whereas you have specific hours they expect you to be at your computer and available.

Or...you could sit at your desk and work taking breaks within your house.

I do. Only reason I wrote one is to stop my screen saver kicking in, when I monitoring data loads in the evening.

Hope your salary is docked accordingly

I meant to also stay in the coffee shop to drink it whilst working. It's not absurd at all!

Why is it absurd? Very normal in my place go pop out at random times both at home and in the office

As mentioned about there are different roles to the traditional, operational, need to be present between 9-5 type of jobs

If your boss is phoning people every time teams goes orange they don't have enough to do. Can you talk to their boss?
Popping to shop, taking in a parcel and chatting to a neighbour are all things that could happen if you were in an office

No, I'm a workaholic and a people pleaser 😂.... I worked way over my hours because I'm a mug.

Like I said, I'm on the fence. OP needs one of these, as long as they don't work at a nuclear power station 😂

I frequently work from coffee shops, depending on what I am working on. I can work on a spreadsheet or a PP presentation just as well in a coffee shop as I can my home office.

Also at our work you need specific clearance to work in a cafe because most work is confidential /commercially sensitive and it would be very inappropriate.