solo day out - unwanted company

TBF i'm usually quite annoyed by thread hijackers but answered this one thinking the OP's query had been resolved so it didn't matter if it meandered a bit

Agree

Very interesting to see how a thread by a woman, about an issue very commonly experienced by women in their interactions with men, has now been diverted into discussion of problems experienced by boys and men. Yet another example of women's space having men's needs and wants imposed on it.

Men know perfectly well that sexual harassment is a thing, so they are always denying sexually harassing you when that’s not the only form of harassment.

No, leave fancying out of it. “I was just trying to be friendly” etc etc. it’s not that she doesn’t fancy him, it’s that she doesn’t owe him her time or to give up her pleasant day for his comfort.

If he tries that then @FrescoeDay should be blunt and say, I am certain that I do not fancy you so leave me alone.

I agree.

But there were two physiological processes going on in this instance which caught her off guard and caused her confusion and irritation with herself which she acknowleges.

Her eyes and ears and brain processed his words and actions - which were out of the blue and she was knocked off kilter so in that moment she complied.

However her gut was at the same time ringing alarm signals about other communication / environment info - maybe his body posture, eye contact, tone of voice, facial expression - even the Q how does he know her plans when she hadnt told him.

Her brain then took a few moments to catch up with her brain and filter in this below the line info. Thats when she became alarmed and need to sense check online. Future communications in the taxi confirmed what her gut but not her brain had originally warned her about risk/threat.

Its OK to take time to reassess a situation and reach another decision.

Well, ask him what's so frightening about ridicule? You ask someone out, they're fully entitled to say no. They could have a myriad of reasons for not wanting to accept. He shouldn't have any defence mechanism or bravado around it at all. If he's laughed at, he should shrug his shoulders and remind his peers 'no problem, it's up to her' and move on, even if it is disappointing. Remembering it's a two part, equal process, one person is entitled to ask, the other is entitled to accept or decline, ridicule is entirely a schoolyard thing, adult friends don't do this to each other habitually for asking people may feel quite liberating. But at his age, the main thing to bear in mind may be that girls aren't another species and can be great friends approached with no agenda.

There's wilful misunderstanding of any thread and then there's poor reading comprehension skills.

I'm often struck by how often posters insert all kind of details that the OP hasn't mentioned, which inevitably creates an incorrect version of events. But intentionally or not - no idea. I'm sure I've misread stuff and my brain definitely inserts things that aren't there.

OP handled it well. Who of us hasn't been put on the spot, only to think later 'why didn't I say that? Why didn't I do that?' It's human, and it takes most of us a while to think of the perfect response.

And I get the feeling, as OP said I think, that she was more annoyed with herself than the man.

FWIW, I always go round art galleries etc by myself even if I walked in with a very old & dear friend, never mind a hanger-on. I don't want or need the company of others for that

CarleyBup

Why don't you suggest he imagine a girl asking him out, but he isn't attracted to her and he wants to nicely refuse.

How would he turn her down, and what reaction to his refusal would he like her to have?

Then he can reflect on whether she should be devastated and humiliated because he said No Thanks, and perhaps he can apply this to himself for the future.

@CarleyBup

Yes! I think two aspects that arent helpful are:

1. Us and them attitude. This creates a conflict between genders where women are viewed by men from a hostile competitive place of needing to be "conquered" and won over as some kind of stupid prize. There is a mystique built up around women whereby men say stuff like "I just dont understand women"- well, they would if they actually listened to what we had to say. Listen to us and ask us. Then you'll get your answers.
2. Reaction to rejection. If you view rejection as a reflection on your entire worth as a person then of course you might feel angry and hostile but there is no need to feel like that. Just because someone doesnt want to date you doesnt mean they think you're a shit person just as you dont wish to date every woman you might meet. I liken it to going to a restaurant. I always order the same thing at restaurants because I like them. That doesnt mean that every other option on the menu is revolting and rubbish. It just means that I prefer that particular dish. It would be ridiculous for the chef to come out and shout abuse at me because I ordered the salmon rather than the steak. Same with dating. We need to be ok with people not wanting to date us- it isnt a reflection on our worth and so no need to be furious or embarrassed about it.

I feel like a thread for mums of teenage boys could be helpful.

I’m certain I’ve seen countless such threads here. But you could start one, @CarleyBup .

Why are you on this thread with your question about your son @CarleyBup ? What’s the connection? That means that you feel that here is the place for us to talk about his needs?
if not some underlying sympathy with annoying needy males (ok I believe you, also believe your son isn’t one, also believe he went to a “sexist” school against boys) - why here?

I absolutely LOVE solo days out! I possibly enjoy my own company a bit too much. Such days are all the more precious now that I have a child as well as the job and the normal domestic/personal administrative chores. I'm fairly direct and have told people this when they've asked to tag along and unfortunately it doesn't go down too well, they tend not to ask again -- that's the downside. But you'd probably never see this person again after the retreat anyway.

I laughed at that too - 'a weird and artificial social hellscape' is about right... 😁

Thank you for such a thoughtful post. I feel like a thread for mums of teenage boys could be helpful. Your advice is superb. I think having grown up with the likes of Benny Hill on the TV and coercion being the norm, and not having had to deal with dating etc for years I sometimes feel like I’m a bit too out of touch.

He has female friends out of school that he gets on really well with so that’s a good start. I talk to him about sexism and racism. Unfortunately his last school was actually sexist towards the boys and that didn’t help and at his current school there is a definite ‘us and them’ mentality and if you are friends with someone of the opposite sex you are teased. He does have one female friend who sits with him and his friends at lunch sometimes. He’s very empathic and caring (on a good day) so he’s got good building blocks. I just know hormones and how the adolescent brain develop are going to hijack him somewhat for a while.

@achipandachair your description of school made me laugh! 😂😂😂 So very accurate….

I think probably the most important thing is considering whether the other person is likely to welcome an advance in that moment - or whether he would be putting his own needs/wants first.

If a girl/woman is sitting with air pods in and reading a book on a train, not glancing up or making eye contact, she’s unlikely to respond well to a boy/man tapping her on the arm to get her attention to make conversation.

Have an understanding that a girl/woman by herself might be having a lovely time - we don’t always need company.

And vitally, if you approach a girl/woman and she clearly isn’t interested then walk away with good grace, without showing aggression or negativity. Women are allowed to say no without having to make excuses. As is often said here on MN, “no is a full sentence”.

And I say all this as the mother of a DD and a DS.

@CarleyBup

I think the best advice is for your son to make friends first. See women as complete human beings with preferences and insecurities just like him rather than as these mythical creatures to date. We arent a different species, we have feelings and worries and concerns just as men do. We also have to deal with a fear of men that men will never fully understand. He needs to know this because it's important. He may fear ridicule but we fear being physically hurt.

Social cues are important, as is body language and tone of voice. Nothing wrong with asking a woman out but it should be done in a non pressured, respectful way and if she says no, thats fine and it should be immediately respected. No trying to persuade or cajole, no means no. It isnt a reflection on his worth - he wont be everyone's cup of tea, just as not everyone will be his so no need for anger or irritation or feeling massive rejection.

Build up his own self esteem so that he recognises that a "no" doesnt = him being worthless. So many men approach dating from the view of what can the woman give to me, rather than, what can I give to them?

I think the portrayal of persistence in films for example is awful. I can think of so many popular films where a woman says no to a man, the man wont give up and relentlessly pursues the woman over and over again and eventually "wins her over" - its a bloody terrible message to send to men that persistence and not respecting no pays off. It doesnt. That doesnt happen in real life. If I say no to a man, him virtually stalking me wont make him suddenly attractive- quite the opposite in fact. It makes him seem dangerous and unhinged.

If he really wants to know why women act the way they do sometimes he should read "the gift of fear" by Gavin DeBecker. Its not a comfortable read for a man (and he's probably too young to read it now) but it describes perfectly why women are afraid of men and how we override our instincts due to social conditioning.

The ultimate lesson from that book is: "Men's worst fear is that women will laugh at them. Women's worst fear is that men will kill them".

It's important for men to know this and recognise it.

Indeed. I would bet that all of the women that I know have experienced this kind of encounter in its essence many, many times.

No. That’s not the slight tone thank you. I am writing as a woman, a feminist AND the mother of a 12 year old boy who is learning about social relationships and is about to get a surge of hormones and I’m genuinely asking for thoughts about what the advice would be from other feminist women as I’m very aware I need to help him to grow and develop into a man!

What bothers me about your post @CarleyBup is that there is a slight tone of "oh poor menz can't approach anyone nowadays" which is wearying, because this is the language used by men who used to capitalise on the rational, risk-averse forced agreeableness of women in the past which is slightly, thank goodness, going out of fashion. Actually men, like women, just need to develop social skills which make them nice to be around, reasonably but sensitively outgoing, and have the sense to know when they are wanted and when they are not. They do not need to whine about how "you can't even approach anyone any more" unless they are basically admitting that they regret the days when you could acceptably extort attention and more from women.

Your son is in a different position, because his social milieu is school, which is a weird and artificial social hellscape. Advice for being socially skilled is completely different for school aged children than for adults, because in the adult world a friendly approach is usually either accepted or reasonably politely rebuffed ("what a lovely day" would get either "yes, isn't it!" or "what? Oh I suppose so, I'm reading" - at which point you smile and walk off). At school if you tried that you would be pursued for weeks by hyenas shrieking "Lovely day is it today? How lovely do you think it is today? Do you think it's as lovely as when you said so last week? More or less lovely? HA HA HA HA AH AHA Oh look, he looks sad, maybe it isn't lovely today"

So my advice to your son would be to make friends out of school if possible, and look forward to everyone being grown up.

I think you’re conflating two things: how to develop a friendship / relationship with someone who is interested in doing so, and how men can occupy social space without assuming that all women in it are there for their comfort and convenience

There are a few posts like this and I can totally relate. But what advice would we all give to a young boy who is about to hit puberty and head towards sexual maturity, in terms of how to form romantic/sexual relationships in a respectful and boundaried way?

I’m 50 and married for 18 years now so haven’t had to think about how you meet people to see if there is a romantic spark for a long time.

I’m thinking about my lovely DS who asked me the other day how you do go about starting to date. He’s only 12 and not interested yet but we were talking about a friend of his. I said, well firstly you make friends with people and then if you like them in that way then you ask them out. He said ‘but you’d get ridiculed if they said no’ and I can well believe it. So in his head he’s too scared of ridicule to ask outright.

But I was thinking about my previous relationships and marriage and how they started. My husband and I were friends and he then, very sweetly, asked me out on a date. I don’t think I’ve had a lasting relationship with anyone that wasn’t a friend first and whenever I’ve been chatted up and then gone on a date it’s never worked out. When I tried OLD for a short period that didn’t work out either.

Would love to hear what others would tell my DS. Was my advice the best? But then if he’s not brave enough to ever ask.., reading cues is good. I can help him with that.

Sorry that was to @AtYourOwnRisk

The OP could have definitely handled it better at the table (or after in private). Here she could have made clear she was happy to share a lift but it was a solo day had been looking forward to , so nothing personal but there would be no lunch or joint gallery trip.

However, I think if it made no difference to her holiday timings, it was probably the pragmatic approach to swap days given how pushy he was even after having the conversation given it was supposed or be purely for pleasure predicated upon solitude. The possibility of him appearing wanting to chat would have been hanging over however firm she was.

It's not like it's something she's got to manage and endure like an annoying neighbour or colleague. It's one enjoyable day and she took the wise decision to bail rather than be polite.