solo day out - unwanted company

How was your day @FrescoeDay ?

Did you see everything you wanted do in glorious peace?

Sadly all true and is still a problem to this day nothing has changed in fact I think it’s worse.

Sorry quoted wrong person

As I have explained. I don’t agree that I hijacked. It had turned into a more general discussion and the OP had magnificently dealt with issue and has hopefully had a wonderful day of solitude. There is never a good enough reason to levy personal insults.

Another quote from Dickens as follows. What is interesting about this is that despite not being renowned for his feminism (what mid-19th century male author was?) he seemed to entirely grasp the repulsiveness of this male behaviour.

Yet so many present day men seem to struggle to do this. What's more it seems to be entirely women's responsibility to educate them:

'Chancing to trip, in his abstraction, over the spreading root of an old tree, he raised his pious eyes to take a survey of the ground before him. It startled him to see the embodied image of his thoughts not far ahead. Mary herself. And alone.
At first Mr Pecksniff stopped as if with the intention of avoiding her; but his next impulse was to advance, which he did at a brisk pace; caroling as he went so sweetly and with so much innocence that he only wanted feathers and wings to be a bird.
Hearing notes behind her, not belonging to the songsters of the grove, she looked round. Mr Pecksniff kissed his hand, and was at her side immediately.
‘Communing with nature?’ said Mr Pecksniff. ‘So am I.’
She said the morning was so beautiful that she had walked further than she intended, and would return. Mr Pecksniff said it was exactly his case, and he would return with her.
‘Take my arm, sweet girl,’ said Mr Pecksniff.
Mary declined it, and walked so very fast that he remonstrated. ‘You were loitering when I came upon you,’ Mr Pecksniff said. ‘Why be so cruel as to hurry now? You would not shun me, would you?’
‘Yes, I would,’ she answered, turning her glowing cheek indignantly upon him, ‘you know I would. Release me, Mr Pecksniff. Your touch is disagreeable to me.’
His touch! What? That chaste patriarchal touch which Mrs Todgers—surely a discreet lady—had endured, not only without complaint, but with apparent satisfaction! This was positively wrong. Mr Pecksniff was sorry to hear her say it.
‘If you have not observed,’ said Mary, ‘that it is so, pray take assurance from my lips, and do not, as you are a gentleman, continue to offend me.’
‘Well, well!’ said Mr Pecksniff, mildly, ‘I feel that I might consider this becoming in a daughter of my own, and why should I object to it in one so beautiful! It’s harsh. It cuts me to the soul,’ said Mr Pecksniff; ‘but I cannot quarrel with you, Mary.’
She tried to say she was sorry to hear it, but burst into tears. Mr Pecksniff .... in his disengaged hand, catching hers, employed himself in separating the fingers with his own, and sometimes kissing them, as he pursued the conversation thus:
‘I am glad we met. I am very glad we met. I am able now to ease my bosom of a heavy load, and speak to you in confidence. Mary,’ said Mr Pecksniff in his tenderest tones, indeed they were so very tender that he almost squeaked: ‘My soul! I love you!’
A fantastic thing, that maiden affectation! She made believe to shudder.
‘I love you,’ said Mr Pecksniff, ‘my gentle life, with a devotion which is quite surprising, even to myself. I did suppose that the sensation was buried in the silent tomb of a lady, only second to you in qualities of the mind and form; but I find I am mistaken.’
She tried to disengage her hand, but might as well have tried to free herself from the embrace of an affectionate boa-constrictor; if anything so wily may be brought into comparison with Pecksniff.
‘Although I am a widower,’ said Mr Pecksniff, examining the rings upon her fingers, and tracing the course of one delicate blue vein with his fat thumb, ‘a widower with two daughters, still I am not encumbered, my love. One of them, as you know, is married. The other, by her own desire, but with a view, I will confess—why not?—to my altering my condition, is about to leave her father’s house. I have a character, I hope. People are pleased to speak well of me, I think. My person and manner are not absolutely those of a monster, I trust. Ah! naughty Hand!’ said Mr Pecksniff, apostrophizing the reluctant prize, ‘why did you take me prisoner? Go, go!’
He slapped the hand to punish it; but relenting, folded it in his waistcoat to comfort it again.
‘Blessed in each other, and in the society of our venerable friend, my darling,’ said Mr Pecksniff, ‘we shall be happy........ we will console each other. My pretty primrose, what do you say?’
‘It is possible,’ Mary answered, in a hurried manner, ‘that I ought to feel grateful for this mark of your confidence. I cannot say that I do, but I am willing to suppose you may deserve my thanks. Take them; and pray leave me, Mr Pecksniff.’
The good man smiled a greasy smile; and drew her closer to him.
‘Pray, pray release me, Mr Pecksniff. I cannot listen to your proposal. I cannot receive it. There are many to whom it may be acceptable, but it is not so to me. As an act of kindness and an act of pity, leave me!’
Mr Pecksniff walked on with his arm round her waist, and her hand in his, as contentedly as if they had been all in all to each other, and were joined in the bonds of truest love.
‘If you force me by your superior strength,’ said Mary, who finding that good words had not the least effect upon him, made no further effort to suppress her indignation; ‘if you force me by your superior strength to accompany you back, and to be the subject of your insolence upon the way, you cannot constrain the expression of my thoughts. I hold you in the deepest abhorrence. I know your real nature and despise it.’

@FrescoeDay - did you enjoy your solitary day with art today in the less scorching weather?

How did Mr Let’s Have Lunch behave when back in that larger group? Has he found a new victim woman to befriend?

If you’d started your own thread (hijacking a thread is bad form, regardless of whether you think it’s tangentially related or not), maybe you’d have got more constructive responses.

Definitely agree. I learnt when I was 15 that saying No to a man isn't the closure you think and hope it is. One boy pursued me for six months and only stopped and literally moved house when another boy told him to f**k off because I was not interested. Which taught me 2 things - boys/men think I'm joking or playing 'hard to get' when I tell them where to go, and they take more notice of other boys/men than they do of me!

But I’m genuinely not saying ‘but what about the men?’ I have been sexually assaulted, coerced into sex and been at the sharp end of shitty male behaviour many times in my life. And I’m angry too.

But that immediately has my mind going to ‘so what needs to change?’ Men need to change and that’s on them. But steering the next generation of men whilst they are children, that’s on parents, of which I am one and this is a parenting forum.

The OP had said she thought this bloke fancied her and that was why he did what he did. There was then a general discussion about how men go about trying to communicate that/get what they want. Lots of stories about aggressive, predatory men whose egos are too fragile to cope with rejection.

So for the boys, the children, who are about to head into sexual maturity and will be pushed around by sex hormones, isn’t it a helpful question to ask how a parent can steer them so that this pattern of shitty, predatory and aggressive behaviour by men doesn’t continue?

Had the OP still been grappling with her current issue I’d not have asked but she had most awesomely sorted it and it had become a more general discussion.

I really don’t think I deserved the pile on. Especially not the personal insults. It wasn’t an apology for male behaviour, or a derailment, it was trying to add to the general discussion that had already emerged, about how the hell we change it and what insights people might add to help me do the bit I can to change things so that in the future threads like this and all the stories people have shared on this and other threads, of similar situations are far fewer.

Looking at my thread I can see I talked more personally and less generally which may look more like a derailment but it wasn’t intended to be. It was intended to add to the general discussion about the problem but with a focus on this part of the solution. How we parent boys is only one part of the solution of course but it’s probably the bit that most fits with MN.

Had I not been piled on I’d have not added much more after the couple of incredibly thoughtful and wise posts, that other mums of sons might read, and it might help them steer their sons too. I make no apology for that.

Spam Reported

I am incredibly tired of reading threads on here where women talk about their uniquely female experiences of dealing with crap male behaviour and knowing that it will only be a matter of time before someone pops up with a post along the lines of 'but what about the men?'

Whether you intended it to be or not, your post was a variant of that. Several people have pointed it out to you. Perhaps if you reflected on it instead of doubling down, you might come to understand that whether or not you meant to do it, that is what you have in fact done.

I looked for ways to take responsibility for my part of the solution. I asked for help in my role as a mother. At no point did I talk about my sons feelings. And raisingthe next generation to be decent human beings is a parental issue. This is a parenting forum. I don’t agree I derailed the thread. Jumping on me ferociously has derailed the thread. I asked a related question leading on from the discussion and got a couple of very thoughtful replies. I would not have added anything else. But I do reserve the right to reply when people are misinterpreting my posts and being nasty. I won’t be silenced. The OP has already magnificently solved her problem and the thread didn’t start out as a general discussion about shit male behaviour. It moved on to that.

At what point exactly have I gone on about my sons feelings.

OP shared a problem about a man who has shown problematic behaviour.

*Lots of us shared the times when we have experienced similar behaviours.

As a woman who grew up at a time when coercion into sex was the norm, has been out of the dating scene for a long time, is equally outraged by shit make behaviour as you are and as a mother to a son about to head into puberty I feel partly responsible for making sure he turns out better. So I asked the question.

So it went:

Specific problem raised.
problem identified on the thread as a prolific problem
I started to think about how it can change. So I asked a question. So it went from specific question to generalised issues to one part of the solution. It’s called a conversation.

Some people answered thoughtfully others have been arseholes.*

On a thread where women were sharing experiences highlighting male behaviour as a problem, you co-opted the discussion to make it about trying to solve your son's (and by extension, men's) problems.

It's inappropriate and tone deaf to the rest of the discussion.

Rather than reflect on this, you keep doubling down.

This might be a public forum but that doesn't mean you can derail threads with impunity. If you really want to talk about a particular topic, start your own thread.

I have been piled on on THIS thread and will continue to defend myself if it continues.

I agree.

Please, Start Your Own Post'

Thank You

A thread is an open conversation. It started with a specific issue (since solved) that led to others posting their similar stories and a more general discussion about shit male behaviour generally. I added to that by asking about how to make a difference as both someone who has experienced such shit behaviour and as a mother to a son about to hit puberty. There were a couple of excellent and helpful responses. Since then I have mainly only then posted defences against the horrible posts aimed at me and will continue to do so. So you can step back as the thread Police. Thanks though. Perhaps you should think about whether your post adds anything remotely constructive before adding in to the pile on on me. A woman, mother and feminist NOT one of the shit men you are actually angry with.

@CarleyBup Please, Start Your Own Post'

Thank You

Just be honest BEFORE you go x

It is NOT what I did. You have totally misrepresented it because of your own biases.

Well in that case being shitty to me because I happen to have had a boy and happen to have asked a thoughtful question, is of course justified. FFS.

"That is not what I did. And you know it."
That's exactly what you did.

" Take your misplaced anger elsewhere."
ok now that is fair enough I guess, sorry. going now

That is not what I did. And you know it. Take your misplaced anger elsewhere.

Do you know what. I asked a thoughtful question and you have been fucking horrible. Your misplaced anger towards me would be better directed elsewhere. No idea what all this Traidcraft nonsense is but clearly you have some idea about me and are trying to upset me. Why?