To ask if anyone is clued up on the challenge this week to VAT on school fees?

PRIVATE education is a choice not a human right.
The right to AN education for all, as provided by the state, should be a global human right.

use private education, just don’t whine about the cost.

There is also a new petition to force a parliamentary debate (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701268)
now further information is available, including analysis by the Adam Smith Institute showing that the Government could lose up to £1.6bn through this tax.

Update from education not taxation, looks like legal action can’t begin until the education tax receives Royal Assent in February :https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools/u/33087347?cs_tk=AwBz_Szh1cMZLe3uWWcAAXicyyvNyQEABF8BvGRlNDhjY2VlOTcwNGQ2YWQ1NmZmYzM2NWFhZmE4NDM3YTc0OTZhYjAwYzc0MDQ1OWEyZjkxOGFjNjM5NjUwZjI%3D&utm_campaign=d7aee018f3204493b89221cabdfb3d80&utm_content=initial_v0_9_0&utm_medium=email&utm_source=petition_update&utm_term=cs

“Applying your logic what ROI% do you think one would put on getting a child out of an environment where they were self-harming and having suicidal thoughts? The answer is that you wouldn't care about ROI% as long as you could meet the fees. You would just want your child out of there at any cost. Or if their SEN needs were not being met and they were really struggling?”

@BotanicalGreen - this is the aspect where I am hoping the courts will step in and say the policy is a breach of human rights as regards such children. It is also possible, they will deem it a breach for any children already in the private sector as the State has interfered with their actual schooling as well. It remains to be seen.

Sounds great, I’d say there’s really no need to force children out of their schools who live outside your town though.

@mitogoshigg I'm relieved to read your post as that's the case where I live too, a very ordinary town with a mixed demographic where virtually all attend two comps. No grammar anguish and no private schools for miles. Not heard of anyone having tutoring either. Yet, many kids do very well, go to good unis and move on to rewarding careers.

You are spectacularly missing the point I have tried to make several times now. You are talking about conscious financial choice when there are good state alternatives suitable for the child. That is not always the case. Applying your logic what ROI% do you think one would put on getting a child out of an environment where they were self-harming and having suicidal thoughts? The answer is that you wouldn't care about ROI% as long as you could meet the fees. You would just want your child out of there at any cost. Or if their SEN needs were not being met and they were really struggling? Or if you live rurally and there is no decent state option for miles. Or if you can (just) afford the fees but not afford a house move. Complex picture indeed and you need to look beyond the urban elite to understand the degree of its complexity.

“Values are values. There is nothing to explain. It is what you fundamentally believe in. Many just believe in private education and it is very high on their financial priorities.”

No, I disagree. Independent education is not some sort of religion- it’s a conscious financial choice. And I would know because I did attend a public school for two years to board and I do have a lot of friends and colleagues who did as well. Many would love to give their DC the same but cannot afford it anymore and they aren’t going to choose it over a good house and other social and cultural experiences, like travel and music lessons. They may choose it over a fancy car or swish holidays but that is where it ends.
This policy directly leads to less choice for all children because it displaces everyone across the social spectrum. It’s simply terrible policy making and won’t even translate to extra cash for all. It simply guarantees that great British public schools become to preserve of the ultra rich and international elite only and will lead to the bankruptcy and closure of many smaller schools, particularly in rural areas.

There are a huge range of reasons parents pay school fees. The bigger issue is the group who pay fees are already in most cases bearing the highest tax burden in i70 years (those on over £70k before tax (£4200 a month after tax before student loan charge)). No one will be crying for those of us who are as "rich"as that but plenty are disincentivised to earn more so take it easier and the state and the poor lose out as a result - silly state.

Values are values. There is nothing to explain. It is what you fundamentally believe in. Many just believe in private education and it is very high on their financial priorities. There is no point trying to analyse, validate, extrapolate (and overcomplicate). They believe it is fundamental to their children being happy and reaching their potential and that is the crux of it. This is not the only group that defies your logic. There are others, as we have already discussed, where the practicalities of what alternatives are available and the logistics of them, play a more significant role in the decision than pure value for money.

@mitogoshigg - be that as it may, the urban elite are those funding a significant amount of the taxes raised in this country so who knows what the fall out is going to be. The aspirational urban elite may well demand choices for their labours or just cut back on those. Clearly, the hope is they work even harder and just pay up for the VAT to keep funding everyone else.

@Araminta1003

In many parts of the country there is no choice, or you can only choose an alternative if you can afford the fares/time to travel significant distances. Everyone pretty much attend my local state secondary, there's even a couple of students with "celebrity" parents, the child of a lord, the mp's grandkids and so on because the alternative is driving them 20 mins each way to the next nearest comp (considered worse) or 45 mins on a good run to the nearest private school, takes at least 75 mins by bus to that school.

Private schools as a mainstream choice really is an urban elite thing and grammar schools are non existent in most places, not that you would think so reading Mumsnet.

I am not sure what you mean by “values” @BotanicalGreen - even the poshest people I know in London with titles and estates, are doing state primary now and avoid the London style prep, because they want a community and some of the preps are transient and international. So I am pretty sure that if enough posh and middle class people collectively go state and top up with tutoring, most of them will all end up doing it eventually. Humans are sociable animals, they do what people like them do. It is not that complicated.

Which leads me to conclude that all along this was a policy aimed at destruction of the independent school sector, to the extent possible. Never mind if the most elite ones stay elite or become even more elite, because it will be a tiny percentage left. Never mind the kids with SEND etc etc military, arts etc - all necessary collateral damage in the great Labour belief that state for all is the best. Because they know best, and their values are best.
However, I still think they may well lose in court, but won’t even care, because some damage will have been done. And what is more, the longer they drag it out, the more people will hope for a win and pay up.

If it were just based on the maths, it would be reasonable to make such assumptions. However, values, attitudes and the needs of a specific child transcend the maths, when people can afford it. It is not straightforward.

My original post assumes that most people will eventually do the Maths. Private secondaries around here with the VAT are 25-30k. The Government is demanding 4-5k extra per child per year. That’s equal to one child’s full ISA allowance- Pop it in a bank account at current interest rates and let it grow for a uni fund and house deposit. Pretty much everyone can make those conclusions. It’s different where SEND is involved or you know the kids will inherit from grandparents etc eventually. Or you really need them to do all extracurricular at school because you travel and have a proper high flying career.
Well-being of the DC is not just the here and now- people also consider the “in 10 years time”. Therefore, I can’t see just a few thousand leaving and the rest paying up. It’s not going to happen.

Agreed and that's why I believe that it is inaccurate to assume that people will universally think in the same way, as your initial post suggested.

The people you know @BotanicalGreen are clearly very different to the people I know - here they are more aspirational first generation and calculate things carefully. Pay the uni fees and save for a house deposit for DCs plus top up tutoring makes more sense to my group.

Too simplistic. People's beliefs and attitudes play a huge part when something is still affordable to them. Also, there is nothing more emotive to people than the wellbeing and future of their own children.I know many families who are just sucking it up. They are committed to privately educating their children, they can afford it with VAT and they like where they live.

“Interesting but anecdote. It's a feature of these threads that situations vary very greatly by geographic area. This is your own experience in your area. It doesn't mean that people are making the same decisions across the country. For example, in many rural areas families wouldn't have the same degree of choice. What if there were no high performing comps to access?”

I assume they would weigh up the cost of private schools vs moving into catchment and then take an informed decision. Unless people are happy to just pay up a 20 per cent aspiration/privilege penalty. Unless they are very rich or are trapped I can’t see people doing that.

Interesting but anecdote. It's a feature of these threads that situations vary very greatly by geographic area. This is your own experience in your area. It doesn't mean that people are making the same decisions across the country. For example, in many rural areas families wouldn't have the same degree of choice. What if there were no high performing comps to access?

In addition, a lot of the kids who would normally pass grammar did not, because a lot of the kids from the local private schools did grammar tests this year. So our lot are going to the comp, increasingly, which then may mean other kids, especially the kids from the more deprived primaries locally, will be pushed out of those two high achieving comps. So we can see it all playing out right in front of our eyes. And the actual consequences are the complete oopposite to what they may have hoped for.

@BotanicalGreen - that may apply to those already in the private system or who have children with SEND. The rest adapt their thinking very quickly. Not one family in our high achieving state primary has applied for private schools for year 7 this year, and it’s usually about 5 and ten years ago it was even more. And we have had new kids join from the private sector this term.
People aren’t stupid, they know the way the wind is blowing and those who can adapt quickly.

This seems somewhat off the mark to me. There are many people who deeply believe that private education is much better suited to their DC than the state provision and it is unlikely that they would be so cavalier in their attitude to switching. People will generally only switch if they really can't afford to stay. Otherwise they may well be upset and cross but they won't put principles and their bank balances before the wellbeing of their own children.

@Lookslikemeemaw - it is a tax on aspiration. Aspiring for your DCs will be punished- so the counter argument is to aspire less. There is no point in aspiring past 100k - you cannot even park it in the pension anymore following the recent tax changes.
So yes, many of us choose to work 60%-80% out of choice because we would rather spend the time with our DCs instead of handing it over to HMRC.
In all likelihood, others will follow my path too now.

This just shows out of touch some people
are - most women work to feed and clothe their kids, pay for a roof over their head, give them some luxuries… not for private school.
No point in earning over £100k any more??? Boo fucking hoo.
oh, and I do earn over that, I just pay the tax. FFS.