To ask if anyone is clued up on the challenge this week to VAT on school fees?

That wasn’t the case at ours. In fact they struggled with and tried to ‘manage out’ kids that didn’t fit.

The state sector needs to do better and be more able to adapt to individual learning needs. That’s true.

But the tax is broadly fair, IMO, all be it unfair for some. But the whole country is set up unfairly for millions. I’m really sorry, but life is unfair. For most parents using private education life is usually tipped in their favour so I can see how hard it must feel to have that balance upset. Especially if paying for education was to meet individual need. But perspective is needed.

Yet every economist is predicting kids leaving and anecdotally it is currently around 5% before VAT even comes in. I understand you don't think they will leave but that's not what others who are paid to model and forecast believe. The disputed figure is the % however this data isn't formally collated (at the moment).
Each child that leaves indy costs the state £7-8K per year to educate.
If 10% leave then the net income of VAT is £0 yet that's 50,000+ kids displaced out of their schools and all the research proves how damaging moving schools can be for kids, especially at secondary level.
Ultimate it doesn't matter what any of us think, this will decided by the courts. Most likely dragged out over years at the cost of ££ to taxpayer

I don’t think any of us can really predict the impact of this policy. And I don’t think it’s ‘the answer’ to inequality.

I do remember, whilst using an independent school, wondering why in earth it had charitable status. Undoing that would be hugely complex, time consuming and expensive. I think adding VAT is a second best policy, much quicker and cheaper to put in place.

I don’t think we will see huge numbers leaving the private sector, I also don’t think we will see huge numbers of private schools closing.

My prediction, for what it’s worth, is that the vast majority of parents can easily afford the rise. Some will find it harder but manage. Some won’t be able to and the school will provide a bursary. For a very small number this won’t be possible and there will be disruption. Which is sad for the individual child but already happens sometimes and there are worse things.

If schools start to struggle they will make changes. This might mean cutting down on staff. It might mean finding other streams of income (our old school could easily have rented out their facilities for example).

I mean, if they wanted to, they could even do a sliding scale of fees and the parents with the most pay the most and vice versa… but …

Ok fair point, thanks for informing me.

Something to watch surely but I don’t think any parent should get their hopes up.

Though I broadly agree with the policy there should be some kind of exemption for children with SEN and/or schools that offer dedicated SEN provision

But interestingly the lawyer leading the case for ISC is Lord Pannick who previously advised Labour that taxing private schools was illegal. Labour previously accepted that and now he is leading the challenge against them, he knows this case inside out

Absolutely don’t count on it happening, I’d very surprised

I woidont be surprised if the Labour Party back track on the inheritance tax increase
for farms though, that seems an unfortunate misstep. The vat on private schools was clearly in their manifesto. I doubt it will come to it but government lawyers will be involved if it comes to it.

I wasn’t telling staff to get a grip though was I? I was aiming it at the parents I keep in touch with that are engaging with this handwringing and whining, whom I know can easily afford the increase.

The situation for staff is saddening but there are job losses and changes for many. Steel works in Port Talbot. P&O who sacked all their staff and took them back in in lower salaries. The zero hours workers in their thousands. The Amazon warehouse workers that got your last purchase to you.

Its workers rights that are the issue here and unfettered capitalism. Not this tax.

@Orchidzombiewatch thank you, but the school is not in a position to offer a bursary. Most aren't. It's a misconception that these schools have loads of money floating around. With the TPS in place to attract and keep quality staff, rises in NI contributions and energy and food price hikes, the average small school just can't cover it. Twenty percent of an already expensive thing is a lot. I have said this upthread and on the other one running at the moment but if this policy was actually going to achieve anything positive for the state sector, that would mean it would be fit for purpose for my kids and those like them, I could understand it. But its not going to. The only thing it does is harm kids like mine and make some of the vile arseholes sneering at "poshos" on here feel good.

Actually she is in the same situation, and representative, of over 100,000 kids in Indy schools.
It is not uncommon to have classes with 20-25% SEN kids in Indy schools. Not with EHCPs so in scope for VAT.
The sector is incredibly complex and you minimising the impact this will have on the kids of those parents is mean spirited.
At the end of the day it is the 550,000 kids in Indy schools who will be penalised and that's why attacking the parents gets people's backs up. Why punish kids for the decisions their parents made?

I have absolute empathy for your situation and I would hope that the school will offer a bursary to cover the difference for people in your position. But you don’t represent the majority of private education customers.

I see first hand how they are moaning and whining about paying the difference and how angry they are when selling one of their many expensive watches would sort it out. Or going on one less holiday a year. Or upping their hours. Or just both of them working. It’s disproportionate anger and outrage.

I have addressed your points one by one and separated it into paragraphs for you but clearly you are unable formulate a response.
I think you need to look up the meaning of diatribe and re-read your previous post.

My point was that the most wealthy are complaining bitterly about paying 20% extra - friends of mine included - and it embarrasses me. The hand wringing and whining.

I have several difficult life events going on at the moment but I don’t go around whinging and moaning (apart from to my nearest and dearest) because I know how lucky I am.

Fine, challenge it. Fine, have a little moan privately. But, seriously, all this hand wringing I find cringe worthy.

Which of my points do you disagree with specifically? I’m hard of thinking so can’t make it out from that diatribe.

Hopefully the courts will find in favour of the private schools in the litigation. it is the court not barrisers' opinions which will prevail. I suppose Labour could choose to abolish the Human Rights Act 1998 and that might help the UK in some other ways too as we would even then still be subject to laws against torture in war - Geneva Convention etc too.
It would be quite funny though if the litigation means Labour is hoist by its own human rights petard.

Maybe read @Musicofthespiers post on last page?
Relieve yourself of your prejudice and misinformation.

Omg it is a well know turn of phrase

"Posho"? Doing the same thing to me that I was accused of.....but thank you for proving my point so eloquently

Personally, I have been working umpteen unpaid hours supporting the SEND children and families I work with. Working til 1am most nights and weekends, sometimes later. I never got a minute TOIL or overtime pay. Now I work independently (to meet my own child's high needs) and continue to work unpaid at times to ensure children get the support they need, given services are woefully inadequate.

Quite a few children I support attend independent schools. Their parents have been driven to the independent sector because their kids have been failed in state schools. If you don't have an EHCP, in my area, children can't access NHS therapies so they have to fork out for independent SaLT, OT, physio on top.

I will scream from the rooftops for these kids and families. I have been screaming from the rooftops for kids in state provision too, relentlessly. I actually do care about children in all sectors, it really isn't that hard to want the best for all children.

My little boy is in an indie setting because I'm well aware of what he needs and well aware he has no chance of getting that in our village school. He is thriving and I will not be moving him no matter how much debt I go into to keep him there. At his school around 25% of children have SEND, 2 have EHCPs. It is a tiny school, i have no idea if they will survive. They don't deserve this attack based on ill informed ideology.

‘Sue me but I honestly don't care what you think.’

is suing the go to now for poshos who don’t get their way???

‘where were they all for the last 14 years ’

unconcerned as their darling offspring stand to gain from any drop in standards for the other 94%…

Of for goodness sake, in the words of the PP, Get a grip.

@Orchidzombiewatch ”I fully support any policy that seeks to lessen the vast and obscene inequality in this country.”

seriously? This policy is going to widen the vast and obscene inequality in this country not lessen!! It’s a race to the bottom - so selfish. A lot of people value education and have made huge sacrifices.

The real rich people don’t give doot about the VAT as it’s a penny in their goldmine and they have PREPAID their fees so not VAT applied but it’s the low to middle class people that are suffering immensely as they can’t afford it and then forced to move schools. 35,000 is a low end estimate for the number of children directly affected - does their lives matter to you??

Sadly for me going forward and everybody else state class sizes are getting bigger and what this means is state school sizes will get bigger, kids will find it harder to get into their preferred school as the wealthier parents buy up the catchment. And sorry no one is going to see this 6500 extra teacher as this policy isn’t raising any funds at all by the end of it! Retention is a massive issue in this industry so not sure why any teacher want to join and teach classes of 35+ going forward especially now more and more kids have SEN or mental issues.

Do you know what, I don't care any more. I've spent 18 months being polite, courteous to people who attack my DD, her friends/peers and parents who make the same educational choices as myself. We've had a SoS making petty, divisive comments all over SM and people on here call me all the names under the sun.
I've had enough of being the bigger person now.
I'm extremely angry.
So i make no apologies for using a very vanilla term for a group of hypocrits, a group I once belonged to.
Sue me but I honestly don't care what you think.

I reckon there are loads of children with ASD in some highly selective private schools like Westminster. They aren’t necessarily diagnosed. The thing about children with ASD but huge intelligence is that they really cannot thrive in noisy and disruptive environments. As these kids often grow up into adults with great jobs in tech and even accounting/actuary type work etc etc, if we fail these kids by scrapping private and selective schools or streams, then we are just going to all be poorer in the long run. I reckon a lot of boys at DS former grammar had ASD, many not formally diagnosed. The current set up in huge comps with lots of disruption/lunch and toilet queues just doesn’t work for these kids. They need quiet spaces and have their own learning needs. Many are very impatient with slower learners, they cannot necessarily help that, especially not when still relatively young. So many experience tremendous burn out if forced into the wrong environment and that is definitely happening all over. I visited a grammar recently and the head mentioned a child who was in the small learning hub until A levels and made it into Cambridge. Said child couldn’t manage joining the big classrooms but has huge learning potential.

The current standard education model fails a lot of children across the whole intelligence range. One size just doesn’t fit all. Where we are in London there happens to be a fair bit of choice in the state sector. It doesn’t sound like that is the case in many parts of the country. Children need tailored education to perform optimally and the sad truth is that successive governments simply don’t want to invest in children. It’s pubs/eat out to help out over children.

Nothing if not predictable, of course each school will need several diversity officers to ensure indoctrination quotas and equality are met.

It's not a good look.