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AIBU?

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Are these somewhat extreme views?

120 replies

confusedthirtysomething2 · 10/09/2024 09:02

I’ve changed a few details…

My niece (let’s call her Stella) visited for the summer. She’s just graduated from Oxford and spent a lot of time protesting for Palestine. I’m half Ashkenazi but I completely understand the backlash against the Israeli govt and what they’re doing. However, some of her views concerned me and I don’t know whether I’m being over dramatic.

Firstly, something about Palestinians being the original levantines and Jews in Israel are European converts.

It’s a myth that democracy is the right/only way to run a country.

The Islamic revolution in Iran was a backlash against American imperialism so the pictures of women in Iran prior to the Islamic revolution was never what the people wanted and it’s only the past ten years they’ve had a fascist government.

Japan are only rebelling against China for independence because they’ve forgotten their own heritage and have been brainwashed by the west.

She’s always been very left but I found these views quite fringe. She’s a lovely, intelligent woman (always had straight As) but I’m worried she’s on a slippery slope. Or AIBU because I’m not really used to having my worldview challenged? I live in a rural town and never went to uni.

OP posts:
newnamethanks · 11/09/2024 05:51

"I love the poorly educated" says Donald Trump and why wouldn't he? Where would he be without them? But a cult is a cult and if you're ripe for indoctrination you'll fall for it regardless.

Teanbiscuits33 · 11/09/2024 05:23

anotherside · 10/09/2024 10:41

You can be nice/lovely and still believe/spout political horseshit. I mean that applies to at least 90% of people who voted Brexit (and the vast majority of that group didn’t even have the excuse of being young).

70% of Brexiteers didn’t have any higher education, never mind a degree from Oxford. Higher education isn’t everything, but when people with low levels of education vote very differently to those with degrees and above, it does indicate differences in the way they think. Incidentally, Reform also did better amongst the lower educated in the recent election.

Iamawomandontcallmeanythingelse · 10/09/2024 23:18

thefuturewillbegreat · 10/09/2024 21:09

Zionism is Jewish people wanting the right for self-determination in their homeland, the place the religion comes from. The only place our holy sites exist.

Genuine question to you as you have no doubt thought about it - holy wars have been fought over that area for centuries because the Jewish, Muslim and Christian religions see the area as a very important holy site, and peoples of all such religions have ties there. It is also true that the British handled the situation very badly during the 1st ww and afterwards, and the bitter disputes and hatred could have been avoided. We are where we are now, and on the basis that neither the Muslim people nor the Jewish people should be driven out, and both want either self determination or (some groups want) democratic shared determination, what should the future hold? How should the land be split? What should happen in Gaza? How do we stop the hate?

Given the 3 major religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) all hold very similar beliefs, all have the same people present in their texts, all hold the same core values. It really concerns me that the Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, Chief Rabbi and Senior Imam don't join forces and tell their arsehole factions to stop behaving like twats because they're ruining it for everyone.

I recognise Islam is going through a state of being we saw in Christianity in the 16th century (Protestants Vs Catholics and Shia Vs Sunni) but all this is now reading like a cultural war not a religious one. It's not Islam Vs Judaism, it's the middle east Vs Israel, look into the background of Hamas, why and how it formed, why Egypt won't allow it's members back into it's country. A lot of racial tensions in the world are cultural clashes.

TempestTost · 10/09/2024 22:48

Menopausalsourpuss · 10/09/2024 10:55

In the West it is thought to be racist to tell people to "go back to your own country." I'm not sure why that doesn t apply to Jewish people especially if their own country is dangerous for them (most of the Middle East).

Tat depends. In the UK, sure.

In Australia or Canada? Racist to say it to a recent immigrant, but if you are First Nations you can tell the "settlers" to go back. (Not that it's possible for them to do so.)

yellowroses78 · 10/09/2024 22:33

She does not sound "lovely"... these views are sickening.

Humdingerydoo · 10/09/2024 22:29

thefuturewillbegreat · 10/09/2024 21:09

Zionism is Jewish people wanting the right for self-determination in their homeland, the place the religion comes from. The only place our holy sites exist.

Genuine question to you as you have no doubt thought about it - holy wars have been fought over that area for centuries because the Jewish, Muslim and Christian religions see the area as a very important holy site, and peoples of all such religions have ties there. It is also true that the British handled the situation very badly during the 1st ww and afterwards, and the bitter disputes and hatred could have been avoided. We are where we are now, and on the basis that neither the Muslim people nor the Jewish people should be driven out, and both want either self determination or (some groups want) democratic shared determination, what should the future hold? How should the land be split? What should happen in Gaza? How do we stop the hate?

Two state solution. The plan was never to get rid of anyone not Jewish, despite what certain posters would like you to believe. I mean, the population of Israel today is something like 30% non-Jewish. I just wish so many people would stop trying to delegitimise Jewish connections to the land in question.

I don't have any answers for your other questions though. Not sure anyone does.

AtYourOwnRisk · 10/09/2024 22:28

Runsyd · 10/09/2024 21:51

Orwell nailed it with “Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”

I really don’t feel intellectuals are the problem. Especially given the strongly anti-intellectual streak in British society.

GenAvocadoOnToast · 10/09/2024 22:23

Flibflobflibflob · 10/09/2024 21:41

Also been faced with an Oxford graduate who didn’t believe in biological sex. I’m avoiding talking to them about anything else incase I get the rages.

But yeah it’s a distorted lens of reality. Can’t believe that they think Japan/Taiwan should basically be forced under a sphere of influence that they don’t want. She does realise that the islamists turned on the communists in Iran after the revolution (going to go ahead and assume she thinks she’s a communist) and as pp mentioned murdered them.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Peima-Uw7w

This is a good watch, it attempts to explain why smart people believe stupid things.

That was a good watch, thank you. I read a review on this book recently https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lies-My-Liberal-Teacher-Told-ebook/dp/B0BDZMZJ4C it's on my reading list.

Runsyd · 10/09/2024 21:51

Flibflobflibflob · 10/09/2024 21:41

Also been faced with an Oxford graduate who didn’t believe in biological sex. I’m avoiding talking to them about anything else incase I get the rages.

But yeah it’s a distorted lens of reality. Can’t believe that they think Japan/Taiwan should basically be forced under a sphere of influence that they don’t want. She does realise that the islamists turned on the communists in Iran after the revolution (going to go ahead and assume she thinks she’s a communist) and as pp mentioned murdered them.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Peima-Uw7w

This is a good watch, it attempts to explain why smart people believe stupid things.

Orwell nailed it with “Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”

Flibflobflibflob · 10/09/2024 21:41

Also been faced with an Oxford graduate who didn’t believe in biological sex. I’m avoiding talking to them about anything else incase I get the rages.

But yeah it’s a distorted lens of reality. Can’t believe that they think Japan/Taiwan should basically be forced under a sphere of influence that they don’t want. She does realise that the islamists turned on the communists in Iran after the revolution (going to go ahead and assume she thinks she’s a communist) and as pp mentioned murdered them.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Peima-Uw7w

This is a good watch, it attempts to explain why smart people believe stupid things.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Peima-Uw7w

Runsyd · 10/09/2024 21:37

Iamawomandontcallmeanythingelse · 10/09/2024 10:35

It's worrying how much propaganda is shaping young minds, there is a real lack of critical analysis of material (worrying for an Oxford student).

Before I went to an Oxbridge college I imagined it was full of brilliant eccentrics. I got there and realised it was full of people who were completely conformist. Studying incessantly for most of your young adult life does not lead to free or radical thinking.

Runsyd · 10/09/2024 21:31

MilkToast · 10/09/2024 11:45

It’s cognitive dissonance. When faced with facts that go against what a person believes to be true, there are three options: accept it and adjust their beliefs, double down and try to rationalise it in any way possible, or ignore it.

It causes psychological discomfort to have your beliefs questioned, which is why people sometimes go to great lengths to maintain their beliefs, even when presented with facts demonstrating otherwise.

I'll never forget a friend telling me I was in a cult because I don't believe people can change sex or are born in the wrong body. Erm...

thefuturewillbegreat · 10/09/2024 21:09

Zionism is Jewish people wanting the right for self-determination in their homeland, the place the religion comes from. The only place our holy sites exist.

Genuine question to you as you have no doubt thought about it - holy wars have been fought over that area for centuries because the Jewish, Muslim and Christian religions see the area as a very important holy site, and peoples of all such religions have ties there. It is also true that the British handled the situation very badly during the 1st ww and afterwards, and the bitter disputes and hatred could have been avoided. We are where we are now, and on the basis that neither the Muslim people nor the Jewish people should be driven out, and both want either self determination or (some groups want) democratic shared determination, what should the future hold? How should the land be split? What should happen in Gaza? How do we stop the hate?

PurpleChrayn · 10/09/2024 19:33

Seems like TikTok is having precisely the effect the Chinese owners hoped. How fucking depressing. And terrifying. Views like this are why my daughter's Jewish preschool has police and security guards patrolling outside.

GenAvocadoOnToast · 10/09/2024 19:23

These are exactly the sorts of views that led to me falling out with one of my closest friends. She also became pro-Putin and said Ukraine should just give him what he wants. She refused to agree to disagree. I have no idea where it all came from.

suburberphobe · 10/09/2024 18:51

Internet disinformation and the battle lines it has drawn between generations and communities is the great scourge of our age.

Ain't that the truth?!

Scary really.

Humdingerydoo · 10/09/2024 18:37

Comedycook · 10/09/2024 17:55

Zionism is an extreme point of view. It is Zionism, for example, that is driving the illegal settlers in the West Bank who are occupying Palestinian land, attacking Palestinian people and driving them off their farms

There is a very unpleasant trend at the moment by some to change the definition of Zionism so that it includes support of illegal settlers...this then means they can demonise Zionism entirely. It's pretty transparent.

Zionism is not an extreme view at all

🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼

Comedycook · 10/09/2024 17:55

Zionism is an extreme point of view. It is Zionism, for example, that is driving the illegal settlers in the West Bank who are occupying Palestinian land, attacking Palestinian people and driving them off their farms

There is a very unpleasant trend at the moment by some to change the definition of Zionism so that it includes support of illegal settlers...this then means they can demonise Zionism entirely. It's pretty transparent.

Zionism is not an extreme view at all

Humdingerydoo · 10/09/2024 17:28

confusedthirtysomething2 · 10/09/2024 17:06

@Technonan how utterly abhorrent! That poor family!

I agree, it is absolutely revolting. I'm hoping that in the six years since this happened that the family have received at least some form of justice and that the disgusting extremists were dealt with by the police.

The problem is that the poster is trying to imply that it's an every day, mainstream occurrence somehow representative of Judaism and/or Zionism. Which it isn't.

confusedthirtysomething2 · 10/09/2024 17:06

@Technonan how utterly abhorrent! That poor family!

OP posts:
Humdingerydoo · 10/09/2024 17:05

Technonan · 10/09/2024 16:50

Zionism is a political nationalist movement with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine. I will take the point that it is not an extremist movement in itself, but it has sparked extremism, from Lehi, for example, who attempted to negotiate with Hitler for his support to oppose the British in Palestine, though this was before the Holocaust, but at a time when Jewish people were being persecuted in Nazi Germany; to the West Bank settlers.

This is the way some of the settlers behave: Jewish extremists taunt 'Ali's on the grill' at slain toddler's relatives | The Times of Israel

The problem is, Israel does not recognise the rights of the displaced Palestinians, and the more these rights are not recognised, the more unrest it causes.

Zionism is a movement with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Israel. I'm a Zionist and want a two state solution. Stop pretending the two things are mutually exclusive.

SababaToo · 10/09/2024 16:57

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

Menopausalsourpuss · 10/09/2024 16:54

Why would Labour want to teach critical teaching -alot of their favored ideologies wouldn't withstand being considered critically (eg the trans ideology).

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 10/09/2024 16:53

Very extreme views yes.

But the bit about Japan is a fairly huge error on your part (unless she actually said Japan in which case it’s a huge error on her part, but I’m less surprised)

Technonan · 10/09/2024 16:50

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 10/09/2024 14:22

Zionism is an extreme point of view.

Zionism is a belief in Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland. I would say that calling it an extreme point of view, is in itself an extreme point of view.

Zionism is a political nationalist movement with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine. I will take the point that it is not an extremist movement in itself, but it has sparked extremism, from Lehi, for example, who attempted to negotiate with Hitler for his support to oppose the British in Palestine, though this was before the Holocaust, but at a time when Jewish people were being persecuted in Nazi Germany; to the West Bank settlers.

This is the way some of the settlers behave: Jewish extremists taunt 'Ali's on the grill' at slain toddler's relatives | The Times of Israel

The problem is, Israel does not recognise the rights of the displaced Palestinians, and the more these rights are not recognised, the more unrest it causes.